Cross-Platform Languages [Archive] - ForumsHQ

[abc123]

I won't continue arguing with you Evan, cause you clearly won't see the light.



FYI, I am also a professional programmer, and have been so for 7 years.

[abc123]

"

Perl, PHP, etc provide 95% equivalent functionality in a smaller download. The other 5% is moved into separate NON-CORE libraries, which is where they should be if they're not used often. Go figure.

"



Let me just comment on this.



This is beyond a joke. PHP has it's own graphical components? Perl does as well? Well that's news to me.



And before you say: "Oh, they use windows api's" well, java has to _provide_ them so it's cross-platform. Consider how large a perl/php download would be if you had to download the windows graphical interfaces?



Man.



Anyway, sorry, feel free to call it a defeat of me if you wish, I don't want to argue with you anymore, you are just clueless.

[abc123]

What's with the profanity? Chill out. I come to this judgement from books and classes on compiler design, processor design, and programming language implementation. I've actually written code that manipulates Java binary bytecodes, and have worked with the JVM's instruction set directly; have you? No? Then why are you even trying to talk about it?





Summary: "No, I can't justify that."



Yes, I have worked with java bytecode before as well.

[abc123]

I should stop reading this thread, it makes me very angry :)



Anyway Evan, you are entitled to your opinion of java, I guess, but I do honestly suggest you think through your comments, and fully understand how java is used today, because I don't think you understand that.



Java is What's with the profanity? Chill out. I come to this judgement from books and classes on compiler design, processor design, and programming language implementation. I've actually written code that manipulates Java binary bytecodes, and have worked with the JVM's instruction set directly; have you? No? Then why are you even trying to talk about it?



Java is verbose, sure. But compare it with similar languages, not perl. not php. C++, C#, are comparitive.



And comparing _anything_'s "grep" to perls grep is completely unfair. Everyone know's perl is the king :)



So, sorry for the bitterness, but honestly, you are wrong about most of your comments.

[EvanElias]

Let me just comment on this.



This is beyond a joke. PHP has it's own graphical components? Perl does as well? Well that's news to me.



That's a rather moot point, considering the staggeringly small number of apps written using Java Swing/AWT guis. What's the point of having a huge GUI library bundled with a virtual machine when only a tiny percentage of apps written in a language even use it?



There are *third-party* GUI apps for both Perl and PHP (perl/tk and php/tk probably being the most well known options)... since these languages aren't often used for gui apps, the gui support is not bundled, which makes sense from a modular language design perspective.



Besides, HTML is rapidly becoming the de facto cross-platform GUI. With google and microsoft both investing millions in building next generation, AJAX-enabled web-based desktop programs, the face of GUI programming is rapidly changing and Swing/AWT are rapidly becoming historical relics.



The number of desktop applications written in Java is already decidedly quite low; most Java code being written at the moment is enterprise-level, server-side web code. (if you think to debate this simple point, a quick scan of Java jobs on monster.com will absolutely and irrefutabely prove otherwise.) And seeing how new platforms like Ruby on Rails is said to be an absolutely superior solution to Struts + JSP, Java is losing its web platform advantage as well.



Even prominent Java authors are acknowledging this -- go buy+read the book "Beyond Java", by Bruce Tate, who wrote several other popular Java books and is now all but abandoning the language as a web platform for more recent options. Seriously, look up this book on Amazon immediately, it's worth a purchase (or if your employer gives you access to the Safari Books Online, its on there). Worth reading especially if you don't want to end up becoming as obsolete as a COBOL programmer.



And comparing _anything_'s "grep" to perls grep is completely unfair. Everyone know's perl is the king



grep was just an example of Java's overall disability of the entire domain of text-processing. Considering how text processing is the major component of most internet servers, it is a glaring oversight in the language.



Anyway Evan, you are entitled to your opinion of java, I guess, but I do honestly suggest you think through your comments, and fully understand how java is used today, because I don't think you understand that.



I've been providing ample support for my comments and opinions, while you've mostly just been posting baseless flames and erroneous claims of cluelessness. Your staggering inability to provide well-reasoned arguments against the points I'm posting really shows that you need to follow your own advice in the above quotation.



I should stop reading this thread, it makes me very angry



If you are incapable of having a civilized discussion about differing opinions in programming design without getting "very angry", perhaps it's time for you to look for a new career.

[abc123]

"

If you are incapable of having a civilized discussion about differing opinions in programming design without getting "very angry", perhaps it's time for you to look for a new career."



I tried to be civilised and you come up with this crap.



Go fuck yourself :)



Someone delete this fucked up thread, or my account, or both.



Who the fuck do you think you are to tell me what do you with my career :)



Must be fun being you; incapable of listening to the opinion of others.



Best of luck to you, wanker.

[EvanElias]

I agree with your points, Evan. I thought you were going to go down the "Java is slow" road, which is no longer true so much. Now it can be slow or it can be fast, depending on implementation (like any language)



True, Java has definitely made huge improvements in speed, I'll give it that.



I find Java the most readable language I've dealth with.



I'll also agree with that, it is extremely readable and therefore very maintainable (...but at the price of much slower initial development, as all that readability comes at the cost of more and longer lines of code).



On some apps though this becomes the most important feature, especially when working in very large project teams in which ultra-maintainable code and well-defined interfaces is of paramount importance; there are definitely problem domains in which Java may be the best solution. Personally, I don't think a large percentage of programming projects fit this criteria -- recently I prefer the unix philosophy of "a program should be small, and do one task and do it well" -- but I readily admit that some projects do tend towards Java being a good choice. Overall I think programmers need to be versatile in as many languages as possible and always pick whichever one makes the most sense for a particular problem.



The IDE eclipse is just awesome. I prefer it to VS.net for C++... haven't seen it matched by any other IDE, actually.



Eclipse is pretty cool, for sure. If it ran a little faster remotely over X windows, I'd probably use it as my primary editor. Right now I'm using CRiSP, which is good X editor and full-featured but less sleek (and is decidedly over-priced).

[EvanElias]

I tried to be civilised and you come up with this crap.



If your definition of "being civilized" is constant flames, profanity, and personal attacks -- then sure, you're really civilized pal!

[abc123]

You started the personal attacks.

[EvanElias]

I most certainly did not; re-read the thread!



I attacked Java, not you. You responded with flames repeatedly.