class and race revisions

[syntax53]

sparhawk from morbid = winterhawk? Sparhawk from morbid had just started playing mud like two months prior to when I met him on morbid last time. He's also quite the bipolar mudder.

nod, are you sure about that platinum? i've talked to winterhawk a few times and i really don't think they are the same person.

[lyki10]

A backstab should not round someone, but should at least phase them. When considering that your bs will only land about 15-20% of the time because of insane ac boosts, piled on top of 2k hps, thats going to be a lot of bses before you come close to being able to finish the duel hand to hand. Also, a round from a witchie at that level is going to deal far more than 500, unless you nerf the hell out of their damage so they are then render pussies. Like you said Platinum, a 1 bs fight is bullshit..but so is 4 bses to kill someone if they havent run by that point to a safe room. Level 40+ pvp is a joke in itself, but it'd be interesting to see an edited bbs that has worked out the kinks that can help change high level pvp from being obselete. But then you have to work out the bs for monsters as well, since the game wasn't primarily designed for pvp, unfortunately, and then you have another hurdle to jump over..Anyways, I'm not going to get into technicallities, because frankly, I don't know every little detail of the game. Just my 2 cents.

[the crazy animal]

I like those suggestions for missy/gypsy/bard upgrades honestly..but I think they should stay leather. As far as which leather option is best, I think it's really a toss-up. 9-11 hps would probably be best, seeing the outrageous upgrade that warriors and such were given. However, one variation I don't see would be as follows:



Hp: 9-11, C-3, Leather, 1-handed, magic-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +15, Crits +5

(the simple difference being dodge +15 instead of 10 or 20)



I left out the higher dodges from leather version because of the Rogues. Rogues currently get +10 dodge with leather so I used that as a balance when making each of the versions.



In all truth though the 3 classes don't all have to be exactly the same. I wouldn't mind seeing the mage version get a higher dodge the priest version getting a higher crits and the bard version having the better balance of the two. As that would give them each a little bit more personality and variance.



The same type of thing could be done to the Monks and Oracles to make up for the Oracles lack of good healing.



-----------------------------------



few other topics:



i agree that backstabs aren't as useful as they were back in the day. i had thought about adding +10/+10 or something similar to all class-stealth classes, and maybe a race or two.



I think the backstab will still be ok at low to mid levels with the higher HP brackets. However I think it will start to become a problem at mid to high levels so maybe just put more +bs max/min damage weapons in the game for during those mid to high levels when those HP brackets are really going to start to make it hard on BSing.



Also I think if you want to add BS bonuses to something other than items, you should try adding the bs damage min/max and or bs accuracy to the different races instead of the classes. This way it would give you more values to make the races unigue and then we might be able to have a little more room to play with new races as well as classes.



Perfect Stealth Quest:

This always bothered me. How about adding races to the perfect stealth quest so its not just classes. This is more geared to races like halfling that can't wear heavy armour in tank classes so that some of the strange combo classes like elf witchunters or halfling paladins might get some more play in the game. Thier bs would still suffer when they wear some of the heavier armour so I don't think it wouldn't be much of a problem to the current balance method.



Races:

Halflings need some work still maybe give them some (AC Blur) to help balance out their low strength max, lowered HP brackets.



TCA

[Platinum]

When I played on Bluehard BBS, Winterhawk played as a paladin..we were allowed dupes, and his dupe was Sparhawk, a druid. Maybe it's just someone else using that name...but that's the very first instance of Sparhawk I ever saw, and I'm 100% certain it was Winterhawk..



I also think adding to races is a good idea like TCA is saying..especially on the halfling deal, and the stealth quest being race-oriented instead of class sounds like a great idea.



A variation would be nice, because I agree that they should at least get something due to the lack of healing that the priest-2 classes would get...but at the same time, realise all of the beneficial spells they get as well, like sped, smit, conf, etc..it's not enough to outweigh the no healing in my opinion, however this IS comming from someone who doesn't play a class that can't heal (unless I have a dupe that does..).



Lyki is also right..but, like I said before..add bs accuracy to 'bs weapons'..have weapons whos sole purposes are for BSing, with amazingly high speeds so that normal combat isn't feasable. You could really do this for different level ranges, but you'd have to add quite a few..what I'm getting at more-so is the fact that generally at high levels, if 1 bs doesn't kill someone, 2 will. That's just lame...when you're level 30, it takes at least 3 if you're playing someone who knows what they're doing a little bit..and far more if its an experienced pvper. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing classes BS around 700 damage, the only problem is..while this wont kill a warrior or witchie in one hit, it can and will SEVERELY hurt the classes that have shitty hp rolls, like mages and/or priests. Sure priests can heal..but healing for 110 won't do a damn bit of good in a situation like that.



I still think warriors and witchies have OUTRAGEOUS hp/level settings...you're 'guestimating' hps at higher levels, but by setting them around 13 hps/level, they're going to already have well over 1000 at level 50...and I assume the boards meant to go well past that.



Also, another idea that the idea TCA had for races and stealth quest kinda put into me...maybe add some races to the smash quest too. Such as, dwarf, hog, etc...HOGs are huge powerful dumbasses..they should have a natural 'knack' (sp?) for smashing things..

[lyki10]

That's a good observation Plat, I usually only consider tanks when talking about bs damage..That being said, it really is hard to balance bses when you have to figure in both spectrums of hp ranges. I always thought the idea of tanks getting much more hp than other classes was good, until version M. Although I suppose they should get more, the armour class makes it seem like they need the hitpoints the LEAST. They hardly get hit, and if you want to factor in magic damage, everyone gets screwed for the most part..even witchies dont get much of a break in magic damage anymore. I think the idea of hyping the tank hp even more is obsurd, and needs to be carefully reviewed. But then again, the comment that Drago made about items that give bonuses and negatives might balance out everything that looks ridiculous on paper, but turns out to be a perfect match. I still don't see anything making huge ass hp look too appeasing to those who look for balance, but hey..

[syntax53]

I still think warriors and witchies have OUTRAGEOUS hp/level settings...you're 'guestimating' hps at higher levels, but by setting them around 13 hps/level, they're going to already have well over 1000 at level 50...and I assume the boards meant to go well past that.they weren't guestimates, i have the HP formulas in MME. with the first revision stats a level 50 witchunter would have 1100-1200 hitpoint with 100 health. a level 50 priest with 100 health would have 400-500 HPs. that is too big of a gap, but not by too much in my opinion. i'd like to lower it some to make the gap at that level be about 400 HPs.



people need to realize that the legit HP ranges are crap. when comparing a warrior to a priest in legit using the above stats, a witchy would have 510-700 HPs, and a priest would have 350-500. that's only a 200HP difference. that's two godheals or half a round from any damage dealer. that is not enough. armour now is not how it was in m and non-plate classes dodge just as much as plate classes don't get hit for their AC. if anything i would say lower the AC of plate armour (or all armour on a progressive scale) and raise the DR.



all i know is when i was playing my mage on morbid and comparing my HPs to warrior types, my HPs weren't much lower. that isn't right. for example i just looked up a couple users from before the last shutdown. graven, a level 70 priest has 822 HPs with 130 health and Fisty, a level 67 cleric has 999 with 150 health. my big beefy cleric only has 170 more hitpoint than a scrawny priest? even add 3 levels for 50 more HPs and you're still only talking 250 HPs. 250 HPs is one crit of any level 70 character.

[Platinum]

Yeah..and this is true. Like lyki said..it's kinda hard to balance everything together..question for you though, syntax. You know how monsters now have a 'bs defense'? Is there a way to give a bs defense bonus to characters? Also..what exactly does that modify, the probability of it landing or the damage that it does? I want to say it's not possible to add as a bonus for characters..but if it was, that could be a good way to balance out the effect..is there any ability that you know of that could act like just a defense to bs's?



And yeah..as far as the HP difference between that mage and your cleric, that is kind of shabby. But situations like that are what we're trying to prevent, eh? One thing I'm not sure that MME can calc, but who knows - is, if I'm not mistaken you get more hps the quicker you dump cps into health...say that mage maxed health as early as he possibly could (while still having a somewhat effective mage) and say your cleric only had 100 health til level 55 or so..that'll have an affect on the hp difference as well. I don't know the circumstances between the chars...but the rate at which you raise health has a lot to do with what your hps will end up at.



Lately, it's not very uncommon to see lower HP classes match tank classes in hps because of the way their CPs get distributed. For instance, a Dwarf Paladin on my board had only 540 hps at level 50...but was, by far, pulling the best exp an hour with the best damage and AC because he sacrificed HPs for combat and enc. The end result was, he didn't have as many hps as everyone else, but he was making the exp that other classes couldnt for at least 10 more levels. That's all in how you build the char though..



If a bs defense-type deal worked, we could solve a lot of these problems..unfortunately I don't think there it would..

[the crazy animal]

people need to realize that the legit HP ranges are crap. when comparing a warrior to a priest in legit using the above stats, a witchy would have 510-700 HPs, and a priest would have 350-500. that's only a 200HP difference. that's two godheals or half a round from any damage dealer. that is not enough.



Another way you might try to balance the HP is this:



use the legit class hp ranges or custom ranges but give the races increased hp per level numbers based on size so the largest races have the largest HP/LVL.



Use these for the example below:

Half ogre: 12 HP per level

Humans: 6 HP per level

Halfings: 3 HP per level



All @50th level using the race hp data above: (with 100 health hp bonuses)

a half-ogre would give 625 HP

a human would give 325 HP

a halfling would give 150 HP



Examples:



using the legit system @lvl 50:



a half-ogre warrior would have 781 HP

a half-ogre warrior priest would have 581 HP



A human warrior would have 731 HP

A human priest would have 531 HP



a halfling warrior would have 681 HP

a halfling priest would have 481 HP



using a system like this with just legit mud class hp ranges, 100 health and the suggested race hp values @lvl 50:



a half-ogre warrior would have 1356 HP (575 HP gain over legit)

a half ogre priest would have 1156 HP (575 HP gain over legit)



a human warrior would have 1056 HP (325 HP gain over legit)

a human priest would have 856 HP (325 HP gain over legit)



a halfling warrior would have 881 HP (200 HP gain over legit)

a halfling priest would have 681 HP (200 Hp gaain over legit)



My thinking behind this is a race of any class should have similar HP to the same race of another class so that the races then decided how a bulk of the hp is given.



Each race has about a 200 HP range from high HP class to low HP class however the smallest race in a low HP class has about 675 less HP than the largest race in a high HP class. The legit version only has a 300 hp difference between those two race class combos.



A few people in the past have said they don't like this idea but I just figured I'd mention it as a possible solution to the HP balance problem.





Armour now is not how it was in m and non-plate classes dodge just as much as plate classes don't get hit for their AC. if anything i would say lower the AC of plate armour (or all armour on a progressive scale) and raise the DR.



Sounds good to me. Lowering ac and raising dr might make high level combat a little more intresting too.



TCA

[silk]

forget about making classes bs resistant.. bs has already lost a fair amount of its effectiveness as it is..



hey syn have you got an eta on when the servers coming back? :cross:



and yeh sparhawk on morbid isnt winterhawk.. sparhawk is a popular character from a book so many people would use that username..

[syntax53]

hey syn have you got an eta on when the servers coming back? :cross: i haven't heard from xetox since the second week of december