[B]I don’t cheat and I still have a problem, be a good sysop and fix your dam rules![B/]
I think maybe I was too nice.
TCA
I play on Morbid, first time I logged in, I stopped and read the rules, Now I'm just a dumb Canadian, but hey, they're written in plain english, and they aint that hard to understand. Now if you weren't scripting 99.9% of the time you might pull your head far enough out of your ass, to realize that just maybe you missed something.
Saying that you didn't see, or did read the rules because you didn't know where they were is a dumb excuse. When you first made you account, You didn't stop and see what was written on the screen in front of you? Or is it that your just to ignorant to read anything that might have to do with the board your playing on.
Ignorance and idiots walk on the path hand in hand!
warning: dont play here
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the crazy animal
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 5:00 am
Re: warning: dont play here
Just a dumb Canadian got that right. I’m surprised you read the rules since you obviously didn’t read all of my post and certainly didn’t grasp any of the points.
To clarify some things you say no where did I say I script 99.9% nor did I say Ignorance of the rules is a good excuse. You should get your eyes checked. Second you should be the one pulling your overly zealous head out of your self righteous asshole and read the rest of my post because you didn’t seem to follow what I was saying very well.
S h o u l d I r e - t y p e i t s l o w e r f o r y o u!
Thirdly if you had read paragraph 3 you would see that I admit reading the rules as a basis to write my examples. So maybe you should read a little more than 2 lines before you decide to further prove your stupidity.
Wow you just lowered my respect for Canada just a little bit more nice going.
TCA
To clarify some things you say no where did I say I script 99.9% nor did I say Ignorance of the rules is a good excuse. You should get your eyes checked. Second you should be the one pulling your overly zealous head out of your self righteous asshole and read the rest of my post because you didn’t seem to follow what I was saying very well.
S h o u l d I r e - t y p e i t s l o w e r f o r y o u!
Thirdly if you had read paragraph 3 you would see that I admit reading the rules as a basis to write my examples. So maybe you should read a little more than 2 lines before you decide to further prove your stupidity.
Wow you just lowered my respect for Canada just a little bit more nice going.
TCA
Re: warning: dont play here
Hey Syntax,
You think its a fair punishment to suspend me for a week, strip my character of all its items which took months to get, all becaues i searched around town a bit with my level 1 dupe when my main character was hung?
I can't find anything in your rules on the logon screen that would lead me to believe that what i did was illegal.
You think its a fair punishment to suspend me for a week, strip my character of all its items which took months to get, all becaues i searched around town a bit with my level 1 dupe when my main character was hung?
I can't find anything in your rules on the logon screen that would lead me to believe that what i did was illegal.
Re: warning: dont play here
btw i think u have the wrong idea about what happened Syntax... My dupe character was in no way involved with Athen's death, i killed him fair and square with Kalus alone.. this is what happened, you can check your logon/logoff logs to verify it because i'm sure Athen has told you some bullsh1t story.
Vpopu attacks me and hangs me north of town square.
I bring in the dupe and search around where im hung a bit.
Kalus enters and runs to bank, dupe was NOT searching when he entered.
Dupe logs off about 5 seconds after Kalus enters.
Kalus heals up and about a minute later tracks Athen about 6 rooms south of town square.
Kalus attacks Athen and rounds him. Athen hangs up at this point.
Thats what happened... The dupe was in NO WAY involved in Athens death so your punishement of striping me of all my items shouldn't have happened.
Vpopu attacks me and hangs me north of town square.
I bring in the dupe and search around where im hung a bit.
Kalus enters and runs to bank, dupe was NOT searching when he entered.
Dupe logs off about 5 seconds after Kalus enters.
Kalus heals up and about a minute later tracks Athen about 6 rooms south of town square.
Kalus attacks Athen and rounds him. Athen hangs up at this point.
Thats what happened... The dupe was in NO WAY involved in Athens death so your punishement of striping me of all my items shouldn't have happened.
Re: warning: dont play here
oh fun ...
To start off:
My examples 3,4,5 are not summed up in #2 of your rules. Number 3 is the rule that you must be referring to;
no..... i was referring to YOUR #2, lol.
however, rules should be clear and concise as well as not having room for misreading it. Your rule permits communication which would allow a character to walk to the bank in-order to sit and chat with people. Since they did that in-order to communicate they wouldn’t be breaking a rule hence a loop hole has formed. Since 3 is no longer really summed up in two since a player can walk to the bank to talk he now has the ability to walk into town and interfere with PVP and get into trouble.
wrong. communication only does not mean walking to the bank. am i going to suspend someone for it? no, of course not. but if someone is doing anything other then talking that puts them at risk. the rule is simple, you can only use a checking account to talk, aka communication. so if you dont want to risk getting in trouble, then dont walk around because walking is not talking. if someone needs clarification of communications only they can ask. however, i think the only people that need as much detail to the rule as you are stating are people looking to cheat.
So you could simply take my example rule 3 and insert it into yours and be better off for it. As per the other rules I based them off of what you had posted so don’t jump down my throat just because you assume too much. Although I know I can’t expect to much from someone that can’t remember which of there own rules I summed up even though they just went to the trouble of getting a screen cap of it. :P
now you're insulting me personally on something YOU misunderstood ... whos assuming now? btw, what did i assume?
Now the problem with kalus was that he had a poor understanding of the rules or a very good one. As I pointed out the loop hole in your rules kalus seems to believe he could walk around, search, and do what ever so long as he had 0 exp and didn’t have any items and communicated some while doing it. See the funny thing is that he actually has a valid point as your wording only to communicate doesn’t say were they communicate or interact with in the realm so long as they follow the other rules as i pointed out above.
well here we'll just have to agree to disagree, because i think it's pretty cut and dry that searching is not communicating.
Secondly Why don't you think about the fact that most if not all the players on morbid script 24/7 and have auto log-ins. so the fact of having it scroll by the screen while MegaMud logs-on your character on while your still sleeping in the morning doesn't mean your going to read them or even see them with the chance of reading them other than on a rare occasion or two. So having them posted somewhere such as in these forums would solve that issue. So thank you for posting your cap.
ignorance is not an excuse. the letters are huge and bright red. how can you honestly miss them? you are bound to notice it when relogging after hanging up one time. plus, as i said, ignorance is not an excuse. if you sign up to a new board you should always check the rules. if you are doing something that most boards dont even allow, it is your responsibility to find out the rules and restrictions before doing so.
A few simple points to make about rules:
1. You can't expect rules that aren't read to be followed.
2. When you posting rules in places that aren't seen other than manually logging on it means they probably will not be read.
aren't 1 & 2 basically the same? either way, whenever i make changes to the rules i gossip an event every few hours to tell people to read them. i also have some text displayed when you exit the realm that reminds you to read the rules. just because people use megamud and don't know how to really navigate a bbs doesn't mean the sysops need to bend over backwards to shove the information in their face (even though I think we do so now).
3. Anywhere you can post the rules that can be accessed even by a suspended person is a good place to post them.
4. Rules need to be clear and concise and free from loop holes that can be abused you should know that you have programming experience.[B\]
this isn't the NFL. we shouldn't need to write a book describing every single minor detail and possible situation for every possible rule. i don't babysit people. people know what's right and wrong. the only people looking for loop holes are those that should probably be dealt with anyway.
[B]5. Rules don't mean shit if they aren't backed up by known punishments.
6. If you think some one will still break a rule with a known punishment, then that punishment is not harsh enough!
As I posted in my example under punishments one of the punishments for breaking the rules is loss of future dupe privileges. Now that means if a dupe is caught out of the Newhaven area you can suspend they clear and simple after their suspension they can’t log in with a dupe again. Why is this rule a good thing? It’s good because if a player will break a small rule they are more likely to break a larger rule hence stopping the future dupe rule breaking by that player. If they then continue to break dupe rules you just punish them harder such as banning them from playing mud all together.
Don’t get me wrong assessing incidents is a good thing but posting your starting punishments makes a point of saying you will be punished to people that would cheat. Also stating your rules also makes you the sysop look less at fault while dishing out punishments for sticky situations such as this. Which if the rules and punishments were known and posted in easy to get locations such as a sticky forum thread like your mmud explorer data file you could have simply said the punishments are posted and all I did was follow through with it.
The part about posting the rules just to make us look less at fault is probably the only reason I might do it. I think it's treating everyone like 2 year olds to have to though.
Yes most of the reason people were mad about this is the fact about the items and yes you are correct you can't expect people to tell the whole truth about whose items they were and to whom they belonged. So what do you do?
You can do a few things of which I will now pick on you for since you felt the need to pick at each thing I said ;)
uhg here we go again, this sounds like erek. this is a debate. that's what you do in a debate. you debate the points a person makes. infact, it's better that way because then you know what people are responding to. it's not just a one paragraph flame that doesn't accomplish anything.
1. You can do what you did which was fundamentally flawed not only because you had no proof of who’s items where who's or if that player still held any of the others lost inventory. This in my opinion this promotes whining since the attacked player could have easily sucked it up and said just give me a weapon and I’ll kill that bitch later and get my stuff back just suspend his cheating ass and I’ll do the rest.
i agree that just suiciding the character for the victim without communicating with anyone else was not the best choice. however, you don't realize how often i have to deal with this shit. people whine to me every fricken day about petty he said she said bullshit (or in mud's case, he did she did bullshit) it gets tiring. in the particular case i was just pissed because i had JUST warned kalus about it only a few hours ago. this is not an excuse, more of a rant.
2. You could have removed the cheaters mud access pending the investigation and then asked the two parties involved a few simple questions. Such as what items did you lose and checked it against the cheaters inventory. Then ask the cheater what items were on the ground after the attacked person died. This would give you a very fair idea of what items may or may not have been lost. To follow up you ask the cheater that the attacked claims to have lost these items. Now you have some information to make an objective and fair judgment on what items to take and give to the player that was attacked at the end of the item problem you issue what ever suspension need to be given. The only problem with this solution is it takes time to sort out the facts but it’s a very fair method of doing it.
the time it takes to do something like this, as you said, is the problem. i dont want to deal with this shit at all, let alone for hours after. and as you agreed with me earlier, you just cannot believe people when they say whos stuff is whos. because even if they are telling the truth they could still be wrong because of something they dont know about.
3. Now since time is money and you don’t want to waste a lot of your time. You just take a hard line stance of I’m not going to reward cheaters or whiners and post a punishment that is harsh enough to deter most people from doing it. In the case of items; normally it is best to let players themselves to sort it out or to just burn the cheaters inventory unless the attacked player wishes to try to recover them their selves. Both parties lose out on something and because of that they won't bother you as much when things like that happen.
agreed
Now as for your point on punishments we play on an edited bored which gives you the sysop a lot more power than on a non edited board. If you don’t think so then you’re just not being creative enough. If you don't think a number of days worth of suspension will keep a person from cheating then you need to come up with something else. How about this punishment subtract 20% of the cheaters total exp, and subtract any levels that, that player would no longer qualify for and give them enough evil points to be max fiend and then at the end of there suspension temporarily lower the amount of evil points redeemed in a day and tell the realm its all the cheaters fault. Beyond that if you can’t keep a person from cheating when you hatch them breaking a rule post proof and just delete their character.
that's a possibility
[B]I don’t cheat and I still have a problem, be a good sysop and fix your dam rules![B/]
I think maybe I was too nice.
TCA
i think the rules are fine. usually, the only people that have a problem with them are people like Damage Inc., who try and get every single possible little edge by trying to ride the sysop for everything he can without getting in trouble.
To start off:
My examples 3,4,5 are not summed up in #2 of your rules. Number 3 is the rule that you must be referring to;
no..... i was referring to YOUR #2, lol.
however, rules should be clear and concise as well as not having room for misreading it. Your rule permits communication which would allow a character to walk to the bank in-order to sit and chat with people. Since they did that in-order to communicate they wouldn’t be breaking a rule hence a loop hole has formed. Since 3 is no longer really summed up in two since a player can walk to the bank to talk he now has the ability to walk into town and interfere with PVP and get into trouble.
wrong. communication only does not mean walking to the bank. am i going to suspend someone for it? no, of course not. but if someone is doing anything other then talking that puts them at risk. the rule is simple, you can only use a checking account to talk, aka communication. so if you dont want to risk getting in trouble, then dont walk around because walking is not talking. if someone needs clarification of communications only they can ask. however, i think the only people that need as much detail to the rule as you are stating are people looking to cheat.
So you could simply take my example rule 3 and insert it into yours and be better off for it. As per the other rules I based them off of what you had posted so don’t jump down my throat just because you assume too much. Although I know I can’t expect to much from someone that can’t remember which of there own rules I summed up even though they just went to the trouble of getting a screen cap of it. :P
now you're insulting me personally on something YOU misunderstood ... whos assuming now? btw, what did i assume?
Now the problem with kalus was that he had a poor understanding of the rules or a very good one. As I pointed out the loop hole in your rules kalus seems to believe he could walk around, search, and do what ever so long as he had 0 exp and didn’t have any items and communicated some while doing it. See the funny thing is that he actually has a valid point as your wording only to communicate doesn’t say were they communicate or interact with in the realm so long as they follow the other rules as i pointed out above.
well here we'll just have to agree to disagree, because i think it's pretty cut and dry that searching is not communicating.
Secondly Why don't you think about the fact that most if not all the players on morbid script 24/7 and have auto log-ins. so the fact of having it scroll by the screen while MegaMud logs-on your character on while your still sleeping in the morning doesn't mean your going to read them or even see them with the chance of reading them other than on a rare occasion or two. So having them posted somewhere such as in these forums would solve that issue. So thank you for posting your cap.
ignorance is not an excuse. the letters are huge and bright red. how can you honestly miss them? you are bound to notice it when relogging after hanging up one time. plus, as i said, ignorance is not an excuse. if you sign up to a new board you should always check the rules. if you are doing something that most boards dont even allow, it is your responsibility to find out the rules and restrictions before doing so.
A few simple points to make about rules:
1. You can't expect rules that aren't read to be followed.
2. When you posting rules in places that aren't seen other than manually logging on it means they probably will not be read.
aren't 1 & 2 basically the same? either way, whenever i make changes to the rules i gossip an event every few hours to tell people to read them. i also have some text displayed when you exit the realm that reminds you to read the rules. just because people use megamud and don't know how to really navigate a bbs doesn't mean the sysops need to bend over backwards to shove the information in their face (even though I think we do so now).
3. Anywhere you can post the rules that can be accessed even by a suspended person is a good place to post them.
4. Rules need to be clear and concise and free from loop holes that can be abused you should know that you have programming experience.[B\]
this isn't the NFL. we shouldn't need to write a book describing every single minor detail and possible situation for every possible rule. i don't babysit people. people know what's right and wrong. the only people looking for loop holes are those that should probably be dealt with anyway.
[B]5. Rules don't mean shit if they aren't backed up by known punishments.
6. If you think some one will still break a rule with a known punishment, then that punishment is not harsh enough!
As I posted in my example under punishments one of the punishments for breaking the rules is loss of future dupe privileges. Now that means if a dupe is caught out of the Newhaven area you can suspend they clear and simple after their suspension they can’t log in with a dupe again. Why is this rule a good thing? It’s good because if a player will break a small rule they are more likely to break a larger rule hence stopping the future dupe rule breaking by that player. If they then continue to break dupe rules you just punish them harder such as banning them from playing mud all together.
Don’t get me wrong assessing incidents is a good thing but posting your starting punishments makes a point of saying you will be punished to people that would cheat. Also stating your rules also makes you the sysop look less at fault while dishing out punishments for sticky situations such as this. Which if the rules and punishments were known and posted in easy to get locations such as a sticky forum thread like your mmud explorer data file you could have simply said the punishments are posted and all I did was follow through with it.
The part about posting the rules just to make us look less at fault is probably the only reason I might do it. I think it's treating everyone like 2 year olds to have to though.
Yes most of the reason people were mad about this is the fact about the items and yes you are correct you can't expect people to tell the whole truth about whose items they were and to whom they belonged. So what do you do?
You can do a few things of which I will now pick on you for since you felt the need to pick at each thing I said ;)
uhg here we go again, this sounds like erek. this is a debate. that's what you do in a debate. you debate the points a person makes. infact, it's better that way because then you know what people are responding to. it's not just a one paragraph flame that doesn't accomplish anything.
1. You can do what you did which was fundamentally flawed not only because you had no proof of who’s items where who's or if that player still held any of the others lost inventory. This in my opinion this promotes whining since the attacked player could have easily sucked it up and said just give me a weapon and I’ll kill that bitch later and get my stuff back just suspend his cheating ass and I’ll do the rest.
i agree that just suiciding the character for the victim without communicating with anyone else was not the best choice. however, you don't realize how often i have to deal with this shit. people whine to me every fricken day about petty he said she said bullshit (or in mud's case, he did she did bullshit) it gets tiring. in the particular case i was just pissed because i had JUST warned kalus about it only a few hours ago. this is not an excuse, more of a rant.
2. You could have removed the cheaters mud access pending the investigation and then asked the two parties involved a few simple questions. Such as what items did you lose and checked it against the cheaters inventory. Then ask the cheater what items were on the ground after the attacked person died. This would give you a very fair idea of what items may or may not have been lost. To follow up you ask the cheater that the attacked claims to have lost these items. Now you have some information to make an objective and fair judgment on what items to take and give to the player that was attacked at the end of the item problem you issue what ever suspension need to be given. The only problem with this solution is it takes time to sort out the facts but it’s a very fair method of doing it.
the time it takes to do something like this, as you said, is the problem. i dont want to deal with this shit at all, let alone for hours after. and as you agreed with me earlier, you just cannot believe people when they say whos stuff is whos. because even if they are telling the truth they could still be wrong because of something they dont know about.
3. Now since time is money and you don’t want to waste a lot of your time. You just take a hard line stance of I’m not going to reward cheaters or whiners and post a punishment that is harsh enough to deter most people from doing it. In the case of items; normally it is best to let players themselves to sort it out or to just burn the cheaters inventory unless the attacked player wishes to try to recover them their selves. Both parties lose out on something and because of that they won't bother you as much when things like that happen.
agreed
Now as for your point on punishments we play on an edited bored which gives you the sysop a lot more power than on a non edited board. If you don’t think so then you’re just not being creative enough. If you don't think a number of days worth of suspension will keep a person from cheating then you need to come up with something else. How about this punishment subtract 20% of the cheaters total exp, and subtract any levels that, that player would no longer qualify for and give them enough evil points to be max fiend and then at the end of there suspension temporarily lower the amount of evil points redeemed in a day and tell the realm its all the cheaters fault. Beyond that if you can’t keep a person from cheating when you hatch them breaking a rule post proof and just delete their character.
that's a possibility
[B]I don’t cheat and I still have a problem, be a good sysop and fix your dam rules![B/]
I think maybe I was too nice.
TCA
i think the rules are fine. usually, the only people that have a problem with them are people like Damage Inc., who try and get every single possible little edge by trying to ride the sysop for everything he can without getting in trouble.
Re: warning: dont play here
btw i think u have the wrong idea about what happened Syntax... My dupe character was in no way involved with Athen's death, i killed him fair and square with Kalus alone.. this is what happened, you can check your logon/logoff logs to verify it because i'm sure Athen has told you some bullsh1t story.
Vpopu attacks me and hangs me north of town square.
I bring in the dupe and search around where im hung a bit.
Kalus enters and runs to bank, dupe was NOT searching when he entered.
Dupe logs off about 5 seconds after Kalus enters.
Kalus heals up and about a minute later tracks Athen about 6 rooms south of town square.
Kalus attacks Athen and rounds him. Athen hangs up at this point.
Thats what happened... The dupe was in NO WAY involved in Athens death so your punishement of striping me of all my items shouldn't have happened.
"I bring in the dupe and search around where im hung a bit." -- is your problem. how could you possible think it's legal to use a dupe character that the rules state for communications only to search around for items and/or users. even if what you say is true, you should not have been running around in the realm with a character i explicitly told you was only for communicating. be pissed at me if you want, but you made the mistake of using the dupe.
Vpopu attacks me and hangs me north of town square.
I bring in the dupe and search around where im hung a bit.
Kalus enters and runs to bank, dupe was NOT searching when he entered.
Dupe logs off about 5 seconds after Kalus enters.
Kalus heals up and about a minute later tracks Athen about 6 rooms south of town square.
Kalus attacks Athen and rounds him. Athen hangs up at this point.
Thats what happened... The dupe was in NO WAY involved in Athens death so your punishement of striping me of all my items shouldn't have happened.
"I bring in the dupe and search around where im hung a bit." -- is your problem. how could you possible think it's legal to use a dupe character that the rules state for communications only to search around for items and/or users. even if what you say is true, you should not have been running around in the realm with a character i explicitly told you was only for communicating. be pissed at me if you want, but you made the mistake of using the dupe.
Re: warning: dont play here
i will say this, in the future i will not strip someone of their items without communicating more with other people. because this backlash is taking longer to deal with than the other option.
Re: warning: dont play here
Okay, I'm not against Kalus, he's my buddy, I helped him out a ton to get him levels.
The only problem I have with what Kalus did is the second character he used WAS NOT his dupe he gets for passing level 70. It was his dupe intended for use when he was away from his script. Kalus' main account was not logged on and not passed level 70, so theres no reason that Kalus should have had his dupe on in the first place. That was the illegal thing he did. Everything else he did was legit.
Also, the last part of the rules states "This is not a democracy". Syntax should never be questioned on his judgement. Let's look at him as the head of the Suprme Court. What he says goes. His decisions are final. There is no higher authority he needs to answer to. Syntax is more then fair and does his job better then 99.9% of the sysops out there. He's fair and objective, and doesn't cheat for his gain, or the gain of his friends.
The only problem I have with what Kalus did is the second character he used WAS NOT his dupe he gets for passing level 70. It was his dupe intended for use when he was away from his script. Kalus' main account was not logged on and not passed level 70, so theres no reason that Kalus should have had his dupe on in the first place. That was the illegal thing he did. Everything else he did was legit.
Also, the last part of the rules states "This is not a democracy". Syntax should never be questioned on his judgement. Let's look at him as the head of the Suprme Court. What he says goes. His decisions are final. There is no higher authority he needs to answer to. Syntax is more then fair and does his job better then 99.9% of the sysops out there. He's fair and objective, and doesn't cheat for his gain, or the gain of his friends.
Re: warning: dont play here
First of all, if you want people to read your post, keep the long-winded responses to a minimum. Most people aren't going to read your dissertation here simply because it's too long and you're rambling. Sorry, but if you're going to criticise people's style, expect it in return (as do I).
Anyway, onto my response:
because someone thought a sysop’s judgment was unfair after the fact.
It's going to happen regardless of any rules that are made. Trust me. People bitch constantly about things not being fair; it's the nature of the beast.
All I am say is that there is a problem with the rules and you should fix it so it doesn’t happen again. [...] Your rule permits communication which would allow a character to walk to the bank in-order to sit and chat with people.
While I know him walking around isn't the issue at hand, it should be noted that "communication only" seems pretty concise to me. At what point communication includes walking around, I don't know. But since Uberduck says, without argument, "I bring in the dupe and search around where im hung a bit," this isn't an argument that needs to be had for this situation. Whether you're in the bank, in halls, or in Newhaven means nothing if all you're doing is communicating.
kalus seems to believe he could walk around, search, and do what ever so long as he had 0 exp and didn’t have any items and communicated some while doing it. See the funny thing is that he actually has a valid point as your wording only to communicate doesn’t say were they communicate or interact with in the realm so long as they follow the other rules as i pointed out above.
Actually, it does. When something says "communicate only," that is, by definition, exclusive of all other commands that aren't related to communication. A sign that says "employees only" doesn't allow non-employees to enter simply because it doesn't also say "no non-employees allowed." If you want to present an argument that shows that "search" is a means of communication, feel free.
Secondly Why don't you think about the fact that most if not all the players on morbid script 24/7 and have auto log-ins. so the fact of having it scroll by the screen while MegaMud logs-on your character on while your still sleeping in the morning doesn't mean your going to read them or even see them with the chance of reading them other than on a rare occasion or two. So having them posted somewhere such as in these forums would solve that issue.
Interesting. I would think that posting the rules somewhere that everyone on the board HAS to have scroll by them at the minimum would be more effective than to post them somewhere that a player never needs to visit to play the game. No matter how you slice it, there's an argument about how reading the rules can be avoided, unless he makes it a requisite to have a test on the rules as a basis for account verification. See where I'm going?
Regardless, Syntax is right - ignorance of rules isn't an excuse to break them. Try that on the police the next time you get stopped for something.
1. You can't expect rules that aren't read to be followed.
You also can't expect the rules ever to be read, regardless of the situation. This doesn't allow the rules to be ignored. Every board I've been on has had rules. Syntax even set up an event for gossip that informed everyone that the rules were posted during login. What else do you want him to do, visit everyone with a membership packet?
2. When you posting rules in places that aren't seen other than manually logging on it means they probably will not be read.
But posting the rules where everyone who plays has access to it is perfectly acceptable, and honestly the only fair way to do it.
3. Anywhere you can post the rules that can be accessed even by a suspended person is a good place to post them.
But if they're suspended, how are they to find out about the forums? Uberduck aside, I know of at least three people who don't read these forums, as they don't need to to play the game. And typically, it's wise to read rules before you break them. And btw (from Uberduck), "I can't find anything in your rules on the logon screen that would lead me to believe that what i did was illegal." Seems to me he's read the rules.
4. Rules need to be clear and concise and free from loop holes that can be abused you should know that you have programming experience.
You must be a lawyer. This is a video game. Ever play another game online? Diablo 2, for example? Think they feel, "Well, we didn't *specifically* say you can't dupe items, so I guess we have to allow it." Uh...no. This isn't a contract, this isn't even anything he paid for. I know what Syntax does for a living, and it's not legal counsel. Writting rules without loop holes (loop holes that I don't agree exist, btw) isn't his job. As I said before, "communication only" seems rather clear and exclusive.
5. Rules don't mean shit if they aren't backed up by known punishments.
6. If you think some one will still break a rule with a known punishment, then that punishment is not harsh enough!
Suspension and item stripping are known punishments, but as I said above, EULA isn't what's needed - common sense and following the spirit of the rules is.
Don’t get me wrong assessing incidents is a good thing but posting your starting punishments makes a point of saying you will be punished to people that would cheat.
Ah, and all this time I thought it was commonly understood that you'd be punished if you cheated. How narrow-sighted of me...
So while it's obvious I don't agree with most of your views, let me be clear: Uberduck cheated, plain and simple, and (almost) everyone here will agree with that. Chances are he knows it was at least pretty damn shady to do that. If he didn't that's his own ignorance. It's a free game with a free client (heh, at this point) and free help from the free sysops. You want hardline rules with clinical analysis of punishment? Go play EverQuest or something. You want the best that someone can do for you for free? Keep with mud. Everyone knows sysoping is a thankless job, and yet people still bitch constantly. So I guess it's heading back towards square one: you don't like the way the board's run, go fuck yourself, and play somewhere else. As the bottom of the rules say, "This is not a democracy."
edits: spelling and grammar. i'm anal.
Anyway, onto my response:
because someone thought a sysop’s judgment was unfair after the fact.
It's going to happen regardless of any rules that are made. Trust me. People bitch constantly about things not being fair; it's the nature of the beast.
All I am say is that there is a problem with the rules and you should fix it so it doesn’t happen again. [...] Your rule permits communication which would allow a character to walk to the bank in-order to sit and chat with people.
While I know him walking around isn't the issue at hand, it should be noted that "communication only" seems pretty concise to me. At what point communication includes walking around, I don't know. But since Uberduck says, without argument, "I bring in the dupe and search around where im hung a bit," this isn't an argument that needs to be had for this situation. Whether you're in the bank, in halls, or in Newhaven means nothing if all you're doing is communicating.
kalus seems to believe he could walk around, search, and do what ever so long as he had 0 exp and didn’t have any items and communicated some while doing it. See the funny thing is that he actually has a valid point as your wording only to communicate doesn’t say were they communicate or interact with in the realm so long as they follow the other rules as i pointed out above.
Actually, it does. When something says "communicate only," that is, by definition, exclusive of all other commands that aren't related to communication. A sign that says "employees only" doesn't allow non-employees to enter simply because it doesn't also say "no non-employees allowed." If you want to present an argument that shows that "search" is a means of communication, feel free.
Secondly Why don't you think about the fact that most if not all the players on morbid script 24/7 and have auto log-ins. so the fact of having it scroll by the screen while MegaMud logs-on your character on while your still sleeping in the morning doesn't mean your going to read them or even see them with the chance of reading them other than on a rare occasion or two. So having them posted somewhere such as in these forums would solve that issue.
Interesting. I would think that posting the rules somewhere that everyone on the board HAS to have scroll by them at the minimum would be more effective than to post them somewhere that a player never needs to visit to play the game. No matter how you slice it, there's an argument about how reading the rules can be avoided, unless he makes it a requisite to have a test on the rules as a basis for account verification. See where I'm going?
Regardless, Syntax is right - ignorance of rules isn't an excuse to break them. Try that on the police the next time you get stopped for something.
1. You can't expect rules that aren't read to be followed.
You also can't expect the rules ever to be read, regardless of the situation. This doesn't allow the rules to be ignored. Every board I've been on has had rules. Syntax even set up an event for gossip that informed everyone that the rules were posted during login. What else do you want him to do, visit everyone with a membership packet?
2. When you posting rules in places that aren't seen other than manually logging on it means they probably will not be read.
But posting the rules where everyone who plays has access to it is perfectly acceptable, and honestly the only fair way to do it.
3. Anywhere you can post the rules that can be accessed even by a suspended person is a good place to post them.
But if they're suspended, how are they to find out about the forums? Uberduck aside, I know of at least three people who don't read these forums, as they don't need to to play the game. And typically, it's wise to read rules before you break them. And btw (from Uberduck), "I can't find anything in your rules on the logon screen that would lead me to believe that what i did was illegal." Seems to me he's read the rules.
4. Rules need to be clear and concise and free from loop holes that can be abused you should know that you have programming experience.
You must be a lawyer. This is a video game. Ever play another game online? Diablo 2, for example? Think they feel, "Well, we didn't *specifically* say you can't dupe items, so I guess we have to allow it." Uh...no. This isn't a contract, this isn't even anything he paid for. I know what Syntax does for a living, and it's not legal counsel. Writting rules without loop holes (loop holes that I don't agree exist, btw) isn't his job. As I said before, "communication only" seems rather clear and exclusive.
5. Rules don't mean shit if they aren't backed up by known punishments.
6. If you think some one will still break a rule with a known punishment, then that punishment is not harsh enough!
Suspension and item stripping are known punishments, but as I said above, EULA isn't what's needed - common sense and following the spirit of the rules is.
Don’t get me wrong assessing incidents is a good thing but posting your starting punishments makes a point of saying you will be punished to people that would cheat.
Ah, and all this time I thought it was commonly understood that you'd be punished if you cheated. How narrow-sighted of me...
So while it's obvious I don't agree with most of your views, let me be clear: Uberduck cheated, plain and simple, and (almost) everyone here will agree with that. Chances are he knows it was at least pretty damn shady to do that. If he didn't that's his own ignorance. It's a free game with a free client (heh, at this point) and free help from the free sysops. You want hardline rules with clinical analysis of punishment? Go play EverQuest or something. You want the best that someone can do for you for free? Keep with mud. Everyone knows sysoping is a thankless job, and yet people still bitch constantly. So I guess it's heading back towards square one: you don't like the way the board's run, go fuck yourself, and play somewhere else. As the bottom of the rules say, "This is not a democracy."
edits: spelling and grammar. i'm anal.
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the crazy animal
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 5:00 am
Re: warning: dont play here
No apathy I’m not a lawyer. However, the rules in question are BBS rules and he is the sysop there it is his job to write those rules. As per suspension and item stripping they are known powers but as known punishments they were not. As Kalus demonstrated he didn’t know it would be his punishment.
Stating your punishments has nothing to do with commonly understood facts but it does have everything to do with re-enforcing the sysops power pre-incident. As far as knowing about the forums if they have mmud explorer and a morbid data file they most likely know about the forum. Look as I’ll say below that loophole is like an inch if you give them an inch they’ll take a foot.
--Snip----
While I know him walking around isn't the issue at hand, it should be noted that "communication only" seems pretty concise to me. At what point communication includes walking around, I don't know. But since Uberduck says, without argument, "I bring in the dupe and search around where im hung a bit," this isn't an argument that needs to be had for this situation. Whether you're in the bank, in halls, or in Newhaven means nothing if all you're doing is communicating.
---Snip---
Actually, it does. When something says "communicate only," that is, by definition, exclusive of all other commands that aren't related to communication. A sign that says "employees only" doesn't allow non-employees to enter simply because it doesn't also say "no non-employees allowed." If you want to present an argument that shows that "search" is a means of communication, feel free.
Now for the part about the communications only:
I’m going to quote the rule:
“3. One account for playing other games or checking in mud.”
“i. This character may not gain any experience and may be used for communications only.”
What I am saying about this rule is, kalus followed the first part of the rule but not the second. As he physically walked to where his character hung to see if he had died.
He was checking in mud.
He also followed condition A of the note to the rule as he was at 0 exp. Now the only part of the rule he broke was the communications part. Although that portion of the note appended to the rule is contradicted by the words of the actual rule itself.
You might not agree with me but perhaps now you see my point about the rule.
The error in the rule is the belief that people will use common sense all the time because they don’t. If you want them not use any other command other than gossip and telepath then say so explicitly and enforce it if you see them doing something else.
TCA
edited for bolds
Stating your punishments has nothing to do with commonly understood facts but it does have everything to do with re-enforcing the sysops power pre-incident. As far as knowing about the forums if they have mmud explorer and a morbid data file they most likely know about the forum. Look as I’ll say below that loophole is like an inch if you give them an inch they’ll take a foot.
--Snip----
While I know him walking around isn't the issue at hand, it should be noted that "communication only" seems pretty concise to me. At what point communication includes walking around, I don't know. But since Uberduck says, without argument, "I bring in the dupe and search around where im hung a bit," this isn't an argument that needs to be had for this situation. Whether you're in the bank, in halls, or in Newhaven means nothing if all you're doing is communicating.
---Snip---
Actually, it does. When something says "communicate only," that is, by definition, exclusive of all other commands that aren't related to communication. A sign that says "employees only" doesn't allow non-employees to enter simply because it doesn't also say "no non-employees allowed." If you want to present an argument that shows that "search" is a means of communication, feel free.
Now for the part about the communications only:
I’m going to quote the rule:
“3. One account for playing other games or checking in mud.”
“i. This character may not gain any experience and may be used for communications only.”
What I am saying about this rule is, kalus followed the first part of the rule but not the second. As he physically walked to where his character hung to see if he had died.
He was checking in mud.
He also followed condition A of the note to the rule as he was at 0 exp. Now the only part of the rule he broke was the communications part. Although that portion of the note appended to the rule is contradicted by the words of the actual rule itself.
You might not agree with me but perhaps now you see my point about the rule.
The error in the rule is the belief that people will use common sense all the time because they don’t. If you want them not use any other command other than gossip and telepath then say so explicitly and enforce it if you see them doing something else.
TCA
edited for bolds