Your comparison is bad, first off. Trolls make poor ninjas, at lower levels at least. You're comparing one bad class-race combo to another.
Class does not affect HP rolls per level, its straight Health. The bonus is retroactive, so yes you can raise Health at higher levels and never end up having "lost" HPs. But if you only start raising Health at high levels, it'll take you a long while to get it decent.
I'm not sure how/why you are insisting that "dex means more to accuracy". Each point of Str affects your accuracy 3x as much as a point of Dex.
(btw, I didn't say Halflings are "bad", I said they're bad for *monks* specifically)
what i wanna know is... [Archive] - ForumsHQ
Re: what i wanna know is... [Archive] - ForumsHQ
I've played the game, never even made it to lvl 2. The thing that I can see from these posts is that you can not base your opinion off of low level chars. Get a troll ninja to lvl 20, and a halfling monk to lvl 20, and THEN compare. It's like comparing lvl 4 chars on Majormud. There really is NOT that much of a difference.
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STFU
Re: what i wanna know is... [Archive] - ForumsHQ
i'm comparing one race to another and disregaurding class and equipment bonuses. the combonation doesn't matter.
i'm not saying that dex is better than strength when it comes to affecting accuracy. i know it's not. a level 1 troll will have like 3 more accuracy than a level 1 halfling.
i'm contesting the opinion that halflings make poor monks. it looks to me that between the two, their accuracy is fairly similar. at least, that's what i show for these first few levels. i don't think that changes throughout the levels. so, basically what we're contesting here is the health difference and the AC difference. do you think that 7 max hps (right now) is worth the +4 innate halfling bonus on top of the ac bonus you get with 18 (i have no idea how much ac 18 dex gives)?
if the health difference isn't worth it now, at what level is it worth it?
i hope i'm making sense.
i'm not saying that dex is better than strength when it comes to affecting accuracy. i know it's not. a level 1 troll will have like 3 more accuracy than a level 1 halfling.
i'm contesting the opinion that halflings make poor monks. it looks to me that between the two, their accuracy is fairly similar. at least, that's what i show for these first few levels. i don't think that changes throughout the levels. so, basically what we're contesting here is the health difference and the AC difference. do you think that 7 max hps (right now) is worth the +4 innate halfling bonus on top of the ac bonus you get with 18 (i have no idea how much ac 18 dex gives)?
if the health difference isn't worth it now, at what level is it worth it?
i hope i'm making sense.
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STFU
Re: what i wanna know is... [Archive] - ForumsHQ
Originally posted by Speed
I've played the game, never even made it to lvl 2. The thing that I can see from these posts is that you can not base your opinion off of low level chars. Get a troll ninja to lvl 20, and a halfling monk to lvl 20, and THEN compare. It's like comparing lvl 4 chars on Majormud. There really is NOT that much of a difference.
well, i wish i had the skill to pop level 20 characters out within a couple days, but i don't. maybe evan could edit a couple up and show me the difference.
while your point about these being low level characters has merit, it's not nearly the same as comparing level 4 characters in mud. the two games progress dramatically differently. it would probably be more accurate to compare level 16 characters in mud.
I've played the game, never even made it to lvl 2. The thing that I can see from these posts is that you can not base your opinion off of low level chars. Get a troll ninja to lvl 20, and a halfling monk to lvl 20, and THEN compare. It's like comparing lvl 4 chars on Majormud. There really is NOT that much of a difference.
well, i wish i had the skill to pop level 20 characters out within a couple days, but i don't. maybe evan could edit a couple up and show me the difference.
while your point about these being low level characters has merit, it's not nearly the same as comparing level 4 characters in mud. the two games progress dramatically differently. it would probably be more accurate to compare level 16 characters in mud.
Re: what i wanna know is... [Archive] - ForumsHQ
Originally posted by STFU
i'm contesting the opinion that halflings make poor monks. it looks to me that between the two, their accuracy is fairly similar. at least, that's what i show for these first few levels. i don't think that changes throughout the levels. so, basically what we're contesting here is the health difference and the AC difference. do you think that 7 max hps (right now) is worth the +4 innate halfling bonus on top of the ac bonus you get with 18 (i have no idea how much ac 18 dex gives)?
OK... troll vs halfling, at level 1, for stats that matter to a Monk:
- Troll will have 5 higher starting HPs, and will be getting 2 to 3 extra HPs PER LEVEL, which definitely adds up over time. If the Troll vs Halfling pump Health at the same rate, this difference is still maintained. Granted, the Halfling could pump Health like every level, but then their Str (and hence accuracy) would suck compared to the Troll, who could alternate between pumping Health and Str.
- Troll rests faster (its rather significant too, its a 50% increase to rest speed, thats no petty bonus!)
- Troll starts with a 1 higher magic res (due to higher health)
- Troll starts with 3 higher accuracy. And the Troll can more easily pump Str several levels in a row (since Trolls start w/ a high Health to begin with, don't need to pump that right away, can focus on Str more)
In exchange for all this, the Halfling will start with a total AC of 8 higher than the Troll. While this is nice, IMHO it doesn't NEARLY make up for the above shortcomings. The Halfling's stats won't "catch up" to the Troll's until level 21. After that point, perhaps the Halfling is better. But 20 levels of the game is the a very large portion of the game, for which the Halfling will be worse than the Troll.
Also, keep in mind no one said Troll is the best race for Monks, as I said Dwarves and Gnolls are just as good, and all will perform better than the Halfling for all but high-level characters.
i'm contesting the opinion that halflings make poor monks. it looks to me that between the two, their accuracy is fairly similar. at least, that's what i show for these first few levels. i don't think that changes throughout the levels. so, basically what we're contesting here is the health difference and the AC difference. do you think that 7 max hps (right now) is worth the +4 innate halfling bonus on top of the ac bonus you get with 18 (i have no idea how much ac 18 dex gives)?
OK... troll vs halfling, at level 1, for stats that matter to a Monk:
- Troll will have 5 higher starting HPs, and will be getting 2 to 3 extra HPs PER LEVEL, which definitely adds up over time. If the Troll vs Halfling pump Health at the same rate, this difference is still maintained. Granted, the Halfling could pump Health like every level, but then their Str (and hence accuracy) would suck compared to the Troll, who could alternate between pumping Health and Str.
- Troll rests faster (its rather significant too, its a 50% increase to rest speed, thats no petty bonus!)
- Troll starts with a 1 higher magic res (due to higher health)
- Troll starts with 3 higher accuracy. And the Troll can more easily pump Str several levels in a row (since Trolls start w/ a high Health to begin with, don't need to pump that right away, can focus on Str more)
In exchange for all this, the Halfling will start with a total AC of 8 higher than the Troll. While this is nice, IMHO it doesn't NEARLY make up for the above shortcomings. The Halfling's stats won't "catch up" to the Troll's until level 21. After that point, perhaps the Halfling is better. But 20 levels of the game is the a very large portion of the game, for which the Halfling will be worse than the Troll.
Also, keep in mind no one said Troll is the best race for Monks, as I said Dwarves and Gnolls are just as good, and all will perform better than the Halfling for all but high-level characters.
Re: what i wanna know is... [Archive] - ForumsHQ
Originally posted by STFU
well, i wish i had the skill to pop level 20 characters out within a couple days, but i don't. maybe evan could edit a couple up and show me the difference.
But that's missing my entire point, which is that it will be much more of a pain to get the halfling to level 20 in the first place, since their primary tank stats (str/hea) start so much behind.
while your point about these being low level characters has merit, it's not nearly the same as comparing level 4 characters in mud. the two games progress dramatically differently. it would probably be more accurate to compare level 16 characters in mud.
Err, why is comparing level 4 characters in DoorMUD equivalent to comparing level 16 characters in MajorMud? That doesn't make any sense to me.
well, i wish i had the skill to pop level 20 characters out within a couple days, but i don't. maybe evan could edit a couple up and show me the difference.
But that's missing my entire point, which is that it will be much more of a pain to get the halfling to level 20 in the first place, since their primary tank stats (str/hea) start so much behind.
while your point about these being low level characters has merit, it's not nearly the same as comparing level 4 characters in mud. the two games progress dramatically differently. it would probably be more accurate to compare level 16 characters in mud.
Err, why is comparing level 4 characters in DoorMUD equivalent to comparing level 16 characters in MajorMud? That doesn't make any sense to me.
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STFU
Re: what i wanna know is... [Archive] - ForumsHQ
harder to level? i don't understand why. the two have VERY close accuracy values (i think trolls come out slightly ahead at first). the only difference is in their AC and their HPS. the huge bonus to AC will help a halfling level MUCH better than a few more hps.
i only approximate the level differences. the reason i use such comparison, is because doormud seems like it's on a much smaller scale than say majormud. you don't have the huge requirements to level, or the high level cap. in the grand scope of things, level 20 is purdy darn high. in majormud, level 65 is purdy darn high. i just used some math and conjectured.
i'm still not convinced.
i only approximate the level differences. the reason i use such comparison, is because doormud seems like it's on a much smaller scale than say majormud. you don't have the huge requirements to level, or the high level cap. in the grand scope of things, level 20 is purdy darn high. in majormud, level 65 is purdy darn high. i just used some math and conjectured.
i'm still not convinced.
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STFU
Re: what i wanna know is... [Archive] - ForumsHQ
awesome.. we have some stats to work with. thanks
Originally posted by EvanElias
OK... troll vs halfling, at level 1, for stats that matter to a Monk:
- Troll will have 5 higher starting HPs, and will be getting 2 to 3 extra HPs PER LEVEL, which definitely adds up over time. If the Troll vs Halfling pump Health at the same rate, this difference is still maintained. Granted, the Halfling could pump Health like every level, but then their Str (and hence accuracy) would suck compared to the Troll, who could alternate between pumping Health and Str.
yes, 2-3 hps every level certainly do add up. i've mentioned that max hps doesn't matter, to a point. if you can escape a monster, you can rest up and outdamage it. it might take more time, but it might not because a halfling will have 8 more ac.
- Troll rests faster (its rather significant too, its a 50% increase to rest speed, thats no petty bonus!)
yes, while it's a cool perk, it doesn't affect the power of your character much. i love resting with my troll, but it doesn't matter how long it takes to rest. not to me, anyway.
- Troll starts with a 1 higher magic res (due to higher health)
not really sure how this exactly affects magical attacks, so i dunno how good it is. i'm assuming it's very minor.
- Troll starts with 3 higher accuracy. And the Troll can more easily pump Str several levels in a row (since Trolls start w/ a high Health to begin with, don't need to pump that right away, can focus on Str more)
you can argue what you would raise and what you wouldn't raise. shrug. the only thing you can compare is starting stats. it's going to take the troll equal time to get equal level halfling dex as it will for a halfling to get equal level troll str/health.
In exchange for all this, the Halfling will start with a total AC of 8 higher than the Troll. While this is nice, IMHO it doesn't NEARLY make up for the above shortcomings. The Halfling's stats won't "catch up" to the Troll's until level 21. After that point, perhaps the Halfling is better. But 20 levels of the game is the a very large portion of the game, for which the Halfling will be worse than the Troll.
not only will the halfling start with 8 more ac, but he'll also end with 4 more. what will the troll end with? just a higher rest rate. the fact is that halflings start with more 8. the opinion is that 8 ac and evasion bonus isn't worth what you've listed. trolls get a handful of little bonuses and halflings get one big ac bonus.
Also, keep in mind no one said Troll is the best race for Monks, as I said Dwarves and Gnolls are just as good, and all will perform better than the Halfling for all but high-level characters.
you said that trolls are equally as good as dwarves and gnolls (and all 3 make the best monks). that means that they're all the best. i just picked troll because, well, i don't know why.. probably because i thought they were the best (and everyone always picks troll).
all in all it looks like a matter of preference. i don't think it's fair to say that halfling isn't up there as a good monk race.
Originally posted by EvanElias
OK... troll vs halfling, at level 1, for stats that matter to a Monk:
- Troll will have 5 higher starting HPs, and will be getting 2 to 3 extra HPs PER LEVEL, which definitely adds up over time. If the Troll vs Halfling pump Health at the same rate, this difference is still maintained. Granted, the Halfling could pump Health like every level, but then their Str (and hence accuracy) would suck compared to the Troll, who could alternate between pumping Health and Str.
yes, 2-3 hps every level certainly do add up. i've mentioned that max hps doesn't matter, to a point. if you can escape a monster, you can rest up and outdamage it. it might take more time, but it might not because a halfling will have 8 more ac.
- Troll rests faster (its rather significant too, its a 50% increase to rest speed, thats no petty bonus!)
yes, while it's a cool perk, it doesn't affect the power of your character much. i love resting with my troll, but it doesn't matter how long it takes to rest. not to me, anyway.
- Troll starts with a 1 higher magic res (due to higher health)
not really sure how this exactly affects magical attacks, so i dunno how good it is. i'm assuming it's very minor.
- Troll starts with 3 higher accuracy. And the Troll can more easily pump Str several levels in a row (since Trolls start w/ a high Health to begin with, don't need to pump that right away, can focus on Str more)
you can argue what you would raise and what you wouldn't raise. shrug. the only thing you can compare is starting stats. it's going to take the troll equal time to get equal level halfling dex as it will for a halfling to get equal level troll str/health.
In exchange for all this, the Halfling will start with a total AC of 8 higher than the Troll. While this is nice, IMHO it doesn't NEARLY make up for the above shortcomings. The Halfling's stats won't "catch up" to the Troll's until level 21. After that point, perhaps the Halfling is better. But 20 levels of the game is the a very large portion of the game, for which the Halfling will be worse than the Troll.
not only will the halfling start with 8 more ac, but he'll also end with 4 more. what will the troll end with? just a higher rest rate. the fact is that halflings start with more 8. the opinion is that 8 ac and evasion bonus isn't worth what you've listed. trolls get a handful of little bonuses and halflings get one big ac bonus.
Also, keep in mind no one said Troll is the best race for Monks, as I said Dwarves and Gnolls are just as good, and all will perform better than the Halfling for all but high-level characters.
you said that trolls are equally as good as dwarves and gnolls (and all 3 make the best monks). that means that they're all the best. i just picked troll because, well, i don't know why.. probably because i thought they were the best (and everyone always picks troll).
all in all it looks like a matter of preference. i don't think it's fair to say that halfling isn't up there as a good monk race.
Re: what i wanna know is... [Archive] - ForumsHQ
Originally posted by STFU
yes, 2-3 hps every level certainly do add up. i've mentioned that max hps doesn't matter, to a point. if you can escape a monster, you can rest up and outdamage it. it might take more time, but it might not because a halfling will have 8 more ac.
If you think that "max hps doesn't matter, to a point", then you apparently haven't played much of the game. There are a lot of monsters (especially bosses) that you simply CANNOT run from, due to either blocked exits or paralysis spells. Furthermore, there are plenty of monsters where if you DO run from them, you will return to find them at full HPs.
Additionally, max HPs affect the size of natural heal ticks (which occur every 10 rounds), which I'm guessing is something you haven't even considered.
yes, while it's a cool perk, it doesn't affect the power of your character much. i love resting with my troll, but it doesn't matter how long it takes to rest. not to me, anyway.
Again, try playing a game with Hard Mode turned on (which is really the version of DoorMUD intended for people w/ prior mud experience)...when resting takes 2x as long, that Troll bonus is a lot more appreciated.
Furthermore, there are indeed situations where resting time is very important (ahem, PvP!!!)
you can argue what you would raise and what you wouldn't raise. shrug. the only thing you can compare is starting stats. it's going to take the troll equal time to get equal level halfling dex as it will for a halfling to get equal level troll str/health.
Why is it that you insist "the only thing you can compare is starting stats"? You can very easily account for how stats will need to be pumped, as I did in my previous post. As I just showed, no matter how the Halfling pumps stats, they will be lagging behind the Troll stat-wise, for all of the lower and mid levels.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter one bit that it takes a long time for the Troll to match the Halfling's dex, since as I've already stated multiple times, Dex matters little to a Monk. A monk shouldn't be pumping Dex anyway until after Hea and Str are both maxed!
not only will the halfling start with 8 more ac, but he'll also end with 4 more. what will the troll end with? just a higher rest rate. the fact is that halflings start with more 8. the opinion is that 8 ac and evasion bonus isn't worth what you've listed. trolls get a handful of little bonuses and halflings get one big ac bonus.
Why are you so concerned with what a race will "end with", instead of being concerned with how a race *plays through the bulk of the game*? Yeah, so the Halfling will be better at level 21+... but what about levels 1 thru 20?? You're picking your race based on the last 5 levels of gameplay, and are disregarding the first 20 levels of gameplay!
Furthermore, I can confidently say that those "little bonuses" the Troll has amount to a lot, combat-wise, especially considering how much higher their max HPs will be. Max HPs affect your natural heal ticks (the ones every 10 rounds) which affect combat significantly. In the big picture, the troll's bonuses amount to a better effect than the Halfling's AC bonus (which just dwindles to +4 AC by mid-levels)
all in all it looks like a matter of preference. i don't think it's fair to say that halfling isn't up there as a good monk race.
Look, you can believe whatever you want. As to other players reading this thread, I would highly recommend ignoring any advice STFU has regarding race selection. All of my info is based on the following facts:
- I designed the freakin game formulas, so I know exactly what affect each attribute has;
- I've personally hand-tested most class-race combos for significant amounts of time over the past 5 years.
STFU, please don't try to tell me whats "fair" to say about my own game, that's pretty arrogant of you. If I want to inform people that Halfling isn't a particularly good monk choice, I will do so.
yes, 2-3 hps every level certainly do add up. i've mentioned that max hps doesn't matter, to a point. if you can escape a monster, you can rest up and outdamage it. it might take more time, but it might not because a halfling will have 8 more ac.
If you think that "max hps doesn't matter, to a point", then you apparently haven't played much of the game. There are a lot of monsters (especially bosses) that you simply CANNOT run from, due to either blocked exits or paralysis spells. Furthermore, there are plenty of monsters where if you DO run from them, you will return to find them at full HPs.
Additionally, max HPs affect the size of natural heal ticks (which occur every 10 rounds), which I'm guessing is something you haven't even considered.
yes, while it's a cool perk, it doesn't affect the power of your character much. i love resting with my troll, but it doesn't matter how long it takes to rest. not to me, anyway.
Again, try playing a game with Hard Mode turned on (which is really the version of DoorMUD intended for people w/ prior mud experience)...when resting takes 2x as long, that Troll bonus is a lot more appreciated.
Furthermore, there are indeed situations where resting time is very important (ahem, PvP!!!)
you can argue what you would raise and what you wouldn't raise. shrug. the only thing you can compare is starting stats. it's going to take the troll equal time to get equal level halfling dex as it will for a halfling to get equal level troll str/health.
Why is it that you insist "the only thing you can compare is starting stats"? You can very easily account for how stats will need to be pumped, as I did in my previous post. As I just showed, no matter how the Halfling pumps stats, they will be lagging behind the Troll stat-wise, for all of the lower and mid levels.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter one bit that it takes a long time for the Troll to match the Halfling's dex, since as I've already stated multiple times, Dex matters little to a Monk. A monk shouldn't be pumping Dex anyway until after Hea and Str are both maxed!
not only will the halfling start with 8 more ac, but he'll also end with 4 more. what will the troll end with? just a higher rest rate. the fact is that halflings start with more 8. the opinion is that 8 ac and evasion bonus isn't worth what you've listed. trolls get a handful of little bonuses and halflings get one big ac bonus.
Why are you so concerned with what a race will "end with", instead of being concerned with how a race *plays through the bulk of the game*? Yeah, so the Halfling will be better at level 21+... but what about levels 1 thru 20?? You're picking your race based on the last 5 levels of gameplay, and are disregarding the first 20 levels of gameplay!
Furthermore, I can confidently say that those "little bonuses" the Troll has amount to a lot, combat-wise, especially considering how much higher their max HPs will be. Max HPs affect your natural heal ticks (the ones every 10 rounds) which affect combat significantly. In the big picture, the troll's bonuses amount to a better effect than the Halfling's AC bonus (which just dwindles to +4 AC by mid-levels)
all in all it looks like a matter of preference. i don't think it's fair to say that halfling isn't up there as a good monk race.
Look, you can believe whatever you want. As to other players reading this thread, I would highly recommend ignoring any advice STFU has regarding race selection. All of my info is based on the following facts:
- I designed the freakin game formulas, so I know exactly what affect each attribute has;
- I've personally hand-tested most class-race combos for significant amounts of time over the past 5 years.
STFU, please don't try to tell me whats "fair" to say about my own game, that's pretty arrogant of you. If I want to inform people that Halfling isn't a particularly good monk choice, I will do so.