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Here are my class and race changes so far. Note this is only a first revision and suggestions are more than welcome. I know the HP changes for the classes is a bit drastic from the norm, but i think it needs to be done. Normally a warrior with 6-10 hp range would only average 200 more hitpoints at level 50 compared to a priest with a 3-6 hp range. 200 more hitpoints is shit. Now a warrior at level 50 would have about 550 more HPs (priest avg 5*50=250, warrior avg 16*50=800). fyi, with this setup a level 80 half-ogre witchunter with 200 health (max HPs possible) would have 2292-2450 HPs. at the legit hp range of 6-10, a level 80 with 200 health would have 1334-1650 HPs. i don't think a 900 HP boost at that level is too much.



for the race stats i "balanced" them by subtracting from one stat what i added to another. for example, half-orc has +10/+10 strength and health over a human, but -10/-10 intellect and wisdom. that doesn't mean that the CP usage will be the same, but it seemed like a good system for figuring out the stats. as for class exp tables, i wanted to avoid miniscule exp table differences. how much difference is 5 or 10% really? i actually wanted to figure out a way to make all the classes have the same exp table, but some classes are simply too weak for how the game is currently designed as far as level progression.



here is the total CP usage chart:

dark-elf = 2720

dwarf = 2530

elf = 2720

gaunt one = 2350

gnome = 2360

goblin = 2540

half-elf = 2710

halfling = 2720

half-ogre = 2990

half-orc = 2700

human = 2700

kang = 2550

lupis = 2700

nekojin = 2540

oomphaz = 2760

sprite = 2700



NOTE: gaunt one with the lowest CP total would need level 82 to max stats.

a half-ogre with the most CPs would need level 94 to max stats.



race comparison charts:

most notable change is the dropping of a lot of races that i thought overlapped too much and the lowering of a lot of max stats for some classes. e.g. i really thought a half-ogre with 90 agility was too much. as well as a dwarf with 120. the legit max value for these classes was 60 and 90!



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class comparison charts:

most notable changes here is the dropping of thief and samurai. rogues are now the thief replacement. samurai's were too ninja-ish after i removed kai (they should have never had it). assassins also lost +dodge, +crits, and now have no magic. however, they have a bs min bonus now. warlocks can now use all weapons since i thought they should be the inverse of a cleric and they needed something so they were actually worth playing again.



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Just a suggestion..something I like to do when I edit races...when you increase max stats on races, instead of just saying +30 to all (and I know you did it a little different for the new revision) I like to do say, if the stat maxes at 90 or less, they get +10 max..if its 91-110, +20..111-130 +30, 131-150 +40..and I did this to begin with mainly because of hogs and how much an across-the-board +?? affected them a lot more than most classes..if you do +50 to all classes, no race can compare to hogs for tanks...the least bit..see what I'm sayin?



I also like how you went off cps like that...when I did stats for Black Dragon (the last time I did GOOD edits) i totaled the starting stats for every race and the max stats for every race and tried to keep them within a good margin..because legit, they aren't too far off already..this is more-so a suggestion for new races..but anyway...



I also like how you have tank exp charts being some of the highest..EVERY board needs to do this..=P Also, if you want Warlocks to be the inverse of a cleric, why not make them Any Sharp as opposed to all weapons? Not that they'd use many blunt weapons...but it'd just make sense..lol. Not that much of the game makes a whole lot of sense or anything..

The hp per level seems a little high in general but especially on the heavy damage dealers but I’m not sure how to better balance this out though. Also as is low damage dealers have trouble with tanks already and this sorta makes it a little worse. Especially if if those classes can't do 550 or more extra damage that would now be needed.



The problem we had with assassins wasn’t that they had mage-1 it was that their backstab damage was too high I would lower their bsmaxdamage some and keep their bsmindamage high so they just have a higher average BS damage than the other classes. This way it wouldn’t just come down to who hits first in pvp.



I have to agree with platinum with the warlock bit. If you want them to be the mage opposing version of a cleric you should build them as such. Try Plate armour, and blunt and if that doesn’t work then try the sharp combos.



Something small to do to the races would be give them all hp bonus based on size i.e. Halfling would have a +0 being the smallest then continue in this fashion up to half-ogres with something like +5. In combat size does matter. In any case removing the hp minus from Halflings would make them worth playing in classes that have low hp brackets and not just in bizarre gag combos like a Halfling witchunter. You could do the same thing with ac penalties for the size of the race. As a larger race would be easier to hit.



The night vision capabilities don’t really need to change from default legit values.



Gnomes should get traps instead of extra MR as they are supposed to be very good at mechanical things not to mention locks and basic traps are very similar.



A good change for elves and half-elves would be to rig it so elves would get +2 mana per level and half elves get +1 mana per level. Maybe this could just be added to the alignment quests or something so every 10 levels they get a bonus.



Put the wood elves back in just give them a some other ability to set them apart from lupis maybe bs accuracy or something.



The Moogles race abilities were unlike any of the others so I would keep them in too.



Also Oracles and Monks do too much damage to be magic 2 classes face it they crit and dodge like all hell broke loose. I would rather see wardancers go in than oracles. Also to avoid redundancy maybe take priest-2 from monks give them all weapons and punch +2, Kick +2, Jumpkick +2. Then change mystics back to punch +1, Kick +1, Jumpkick +1. This way you would have a Shaolin style martial arts class as well as retaining at least one magical version. Then for the ninja samurai dilemma why don’t you raise the armour class on ninjas then just let the dodge penalties from heavier armour balance them out to be more samurai like. Two classes in one if you get the point. This armour change would then balance out between the shaolin monk and ninja/samurai archetype.



In the end though it’s really up to you just my thoughts and suggestions.



TCA

The hp per level seems a little high in general but especially on the heavy damage dealers but I’m not sure how to better balance this out though. Also as is low damage dealers have trouble with tanks already and this sorta makes it a little worse. Especially if if those classes can't do 550 or more extra damage that would now be needed.well it wouldn't be 550 more damage, it'd be 350. if you are a low damage dealer you probably have stealth, use that to your advantage against a tank. tanks = high hps, high damage, good armour. their HPs weren't much higher and right now I don't feel plate armour vs leather armour makes a big enough difference in PVP.



The problem we had with assassins wasn’t that they had mage-1 it was that their backstab damage was too high I would lower their bsmaxdamage some and keep their bsmindamage high so they just have a higher average BS damage than the other classes. This way it wouldn’t just come down to who hits first in pvp.isn't that kind of the point of an assassin? i feel backstabbing is all they have going for them now. once they get off their bs they need to get stealthy again because if not, their low hps and lack of crit and dodge bonuses will get the better of them.



I have to agree with platinum with the warlock bit. If you want them to be the mage opposing version of a cleric you should build them as such. Try Plate armour, and blunt and if that doesn’t work then try the sharp combos.if i gave them plate armour then they would be a mageknight with better magic. why play a mageknight then? i will consider giving warlocks and assassins any sharp instead of any weapon.



The night vision capabilities don’t really need to change from default legit values.well one thing i was trying to accomplish was to make night vision more valuable again. also to make lanterns, torches, starlight and illumination useful again too. i wanted to get rid of or increase the minlevel on a lot of the +illu items so a half-ogre would need to carry torches around again. i know it's annoying, but i remember having to do that back in the day and it was cool to have that element of the game to deal with.



Gnomes should get traps instead of extra MR as they are supposed to be very good at mechanical things not to mention locks and basic traps are very similar.sounds good



A good change for elves and half-elves would be to rig it so elves would get +2 mana per level and half elves get +1 mana per level. Maybe this could just be added to the alignment quests or something so every 10 levels they get a bonus.i was actually thinking about doing this for all races and classes, but once again the game doesn't really suit it. only solutions i see are like you said, with textblocks. that would require them to ask an NPC something after every level. another way would be with an item that casts a spell on yourself. i don't particularly like that because that adds to the ease of 10-spelling and i can't stand 10-spelling.



The Moogles race abilities were unlike any of the others so I would keep them in too.yea, and i actually don't see a low str high wis/cha race either.



Also Oracles and Monks do too much damage to be magic 2 classes face it they crit and dodge like all hell broke loose. I would rather see wardancers go in than oracles. Also to avoid redundancy maybe take priest-2 from monks give them all weapons and punch +2, Kick +2, Jumpkick +2. Then change mystics back to punch +1, Kick +1, Jumpkick +1. This way you would have a Shaolin style martial arts class as well as retaining at least one magical version.what about just removing the +crit and +dodge bonuses from monks and oracles?



Then for the ninja samurai dilemma why don’t you raise the armour class on ninjas then just let the dodge penalties from heavier armour balance them out to be more samurai like. Two classes in one if you get the point. This armour change would then balance out between the shaolin monk and ninja/samurai archetype.problem is people don't have to wear heavier armour. i think ninjas are fine, i just didn't think +5 or 10 crits was enough of a reason to sacrifice platemail when comparing a samurai vs a warrior. possibly it would be if i implemented a textblock system like we were talking about that would increase those crit bonuses per level.



In the end though it’s really up to you just my thoughts and suggestions.F You :inlove:

if i gave them plate armour then they would be a mageknight with better magic. why play a mageknight then? i will consider giving warlocks and assassins any sharp instead of any weapon. on second thought, i agree. after thinking about some more i gave warlocks scalemail, made them any sharp, and lowered both cleric and warlock to a 100% table. the combat 3 vs combat 4 for warlock vs mageknight is a big difference that i forgot about.

An idea I've been toying with and maybe it would help you is to move away from using the stats and such so much to differentiate between classes and move more towards class-restricting things.



It allows for the class to be similar (thought not quite a copy), but gives you more room to make them 'different' enough that people will play one or the other for a reason.



-Drago

well it wouldn't be 550 more damage, it'd be 350. if you are a low damage dealer you probably have stealth, use that to your advantage against a tank. tanks = high hps, high damage, good armour. their HPs weren't much higher and right now I don't feel plate armour vs leather armour makes a big enough difference in PVP.



The real problem with tanks vs bs attacks is that tanks have a high AC value also. So it makes it hard to BS them when their AC gets into the 100s. If you really want to make it more balanced lower the AC of heavy armour a little and raise the DR on it. As DR doesn’t matter as much to back stabs as it does to face to face PVP.





isn't that kind of the point of an assassin? i feel backstabbing is all they have going for them now. once they get off their bs they need to get stealthy again because if not, their low hps and lack of crit and dodge bonuses will get the better of them.





It is the point of an assassin but it was just too high before. I would lower the BS DMG a little making it more of an high average BS although still could be slightly higher than other classes and give them part of their dodge back.





if i gave them plate armour then they would be a mageknight with better magic. why play a mageknight then? i will consider giving warlocks and assassins any sharp instead of any weapon. on second thought, i agree. after thinking about some more i gave warlocks scalemail, made them any sharp, and lowered both cleric and warlock to a 100% table. the combat 3 vs combat 4 for warlock vs mageknight is a big difference that i forgot about.





You should think about taking clerics down to scalemail too then.





well one thing i was trying to accomplish was to make night vision more valuable again. also to make lanterns, torches, starlight and illumination useful again too. i wanted to get rid of or increase the minlevel on a lot of the +illu items so a half-ogre would need to carry torches around again. i know it's annoying, but i remember having to do that back in the day and it was cool to have that element of the game to deal with.





You can still do that but the point is a dark-elf has more night vision than an Elf because it lives underground so making them all +75 doesn’t really do much for your idea. Maybe just raise each of those races by +30 illu that way it keeps some variance between them.

They use to have multiple words the use to describe the amount of illu each race had. If I remember they had: Night Vision and Dark Vision something higher than that might be called Infra Vision.



If you want to make dark vision worth something just lower the amount of illu non torch/lantern items give to their users.





i was actually thinking about doing this for all races and classes, but once again the game doesn't really suit it. only solutions i see are like you said, with textblocks. that would require them to ask an NPC something after every level. another way would be with an item that casts a spell on yourself. i don't particularly like that because that adds to the ease of 10-spelling and i can't stand 10-spelling.





You could add it into the rewards from the alignment quests.





what about just removing the +crit and +dodge bonuses from monks and oracles?





Maybe make monks and oracles more like:

Priest-1, Silk, C-3, hp: 9-11, any-sharp, CStealth, Dodge +20, punch +1, kick +1, Bash, hitmagic +5

Mage-1, Silk, C-3, hp: 9-11, any-sharp, CStealth, Dodge +20, punch +1, kick +1, Bash, hitmagic +5



These changes set them apart from the other classes while limiting their power to some degree. They wouldn't get the jumpkick like mystics and would be far different then the other magic-1 classes. While no longer overpowering what was each of their magic-2 counterparts.



You could then set them up as opposing fractions of a larger order of sorts.





problem is people don't have to wear heavier armour. i think ninjas are fine, i just didn't think +5 or 10 crits was enough of a reason to sacrifice platemail when comparing a samurai vs a warrior. possibly it would be if i implemented a textblock system like we were talking about that would increase those crit bonuses per level.





Nod



How about making a stealth version of a witchunter basically a leather wearer and maybe change the witchunter quest armour over to natural so they could wear it too.



TCA

Maybe make monks and oracles more like:

Priest-1, Silk, C-3, hp: 9-11, any-sharp, CStealth, Dodge +20, punch +1, kick +1, Bash, hitmagic +5

Mage-1, Silk, C-3, hp: 9-11, any-sharp, CStealth, Dodge +20, punch +1, kick +1, Bash, hitmagic +5



These changes set them apart from the other classes while limiting their power to some degree. They wouldn't get the jumpkick like mystics and would be far different then the other magic-1 classes. While no longer overpowering what was each of their magic-2 counterparts.



You could then set them up as opposing fractions of a larger order of sorts.

TCA





Not meaning to offend, TCA, but why would anyone bother playing either of those classes?



Any-S, Silk, P-1, C-3, 9-11, Dodge +20, pu +1, Ki +1 hmag +5

vs

Any, Any, P-1, C-4, 13-15



You can argue they get punch and kick.. but we all know that unless you make items to increase those abilities they won't be worth it compared to the sharp items they'd use, the hitmagic 5 is kinda interesting, but the only weapon that's really fun to have hitmagic 5 for is blunt.. unless Syn is planning on putting in a whole lot of non-magical items specifically for the purpose of making these two new classes worthwhile, but then witchunters can use them too... So the paladin and the new class are almost equal in weapons.



Then we come to the armor. Silk and +20 dodge won't hold a candle to the platemail armor. Without the hitpoints to be comparable or the magic-2 to have better spells, this class wouldn't stand up well on it's own.



This comes to the base problem of how to add new classes without screwing up the balance of the whole realm....





-Drago

That would kill what Monks and Oracles were meant to be in the first place...you're tryin to make them like a typical 'wardancer' type of class with different magic..

Not meaning to offend, TCA, but why would anyone bother playing either of those classes? This comes to the base problem of how to add new classes without screwing up the balance of the whole realm....





No offence taken.



When they are magic-2 classes you have to ask would anyone play those other magic two classes. We know that the oracles and monks were in the last version of morbid both harder to hit and out damaging both missionaries and gypsies.



See The problem is that you have to compare them to their closest equivalent classes in the morbid class revision one i.e. missionaries and gypsies and maybe warlocks and clerics. Not warriors at the moment they are far to diffrent for this comparison.





That would kill what Monks and Oracles were meant to be in the first place...you're tryin to make them like a typical 'wardancer' type of class with different magic..





Monks and Oracles were meant to be mystic/missionary and mystic/gypsy crosses correct. The problem is that they over power the classes that they are suppose to be crossed with. Mystics had kai-1 for a reason, that reason being that kai-2 or more would make them to powerful. It goes the same way with magic.



Would this be better:

Priest-1, Silk, C-3, hp: 9-11, Staff, CStealth, Dodge +20, Crits +5 punch +1, kick +1, Jumpkick +1, Bash, hitmagic +5

Mage-1, Silk, C-3, hp: 9-11, Staff, CStealth, Dodge +20, Crits +5 punch +1, kick +1, Jumpkick +1, Bash, hitmagic +5



We could leave oracles and monks as is and put in wardancer or ninja/magic cross classes with different magics instead of the weaker missionary/gypsies classes.. As in a balanced realm you really want to try to have all the classes around the same power.



TCA