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Also..a bard has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with this. They are in no way, shape, or form related to the classes we're discussing. You threw them in there because they're magic-2? Their magic speaks for itself...bards have never been a popular class, i see them barely more often than I see gypsies.



Sure, everyone LIKES bards...but no one PLAYS them unless they're allowed dupes. The whole purpose behind making new classes is so that people will play them...why make new classes that suck as bad as the legit classes that never get played? That's pretty insane, and pretty moronic if you ask me. Like I said..improve the classes that aren't worth shit before you go disproving the ones that people have fun playing.

missies and gypsies always have and always will suck horribly...honestly, how often do you see ANYONE play a gypsy? I maybe see 1 a realm, and they normally roll before they hit level 30...comparing any classes worth to a gypsy is an insane comparison. (add in from other post) People who pick missy and gypsy do so knowing their limitation in weapons and damage..you're forgetting that they also get traps, picklocks, and a much higher BS than mystic-types..all of which carry their own weight in value.





Missionaries use to be one of the best pvp classes you could have until the tanks gained so much armour power that you could sit there and swing away with out hitting them. Putting monks in just made matters worse now they are almost fully obsolete.



Gypsies on the other hand always had it a little harder but if you could deal with the heal limitations you could still do some damage with dragonfire. Problem is if you go head to head with an oracle you get kicked in the head for 300 dmg 3 or 4 times in a round for your one 300 dmg dragonfire.



At high levels one round from a Monk or Oracle will out damage a Missionaries or Gypsies BS no questions asked. I'm not forgetting Picklocks and Traps as don't really mean much when you are going PVP instead of PVG.





Also..a bard has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with this. They are in no way, shape, or form related to the classes we're discussing. You threw them in there because they're magic-2? Their magic speaks for itself...bards have never been a popular class, i see them barely more often than I see gypsies.





I mentioned bards because they are one of the classes that have been blown away by the overpowered Monks and Oracles. They are related to this discussion because you have to balance classes vs the other classes in the game. I would say change all the classes so you could get them as close to 100 or 125 exp charts as you could but for classes like paladins and warriors that hard because you have to change every item they can equip and thats almost all of them.





The whole purpose behind making new classes is so that people will play them...why make new classes that suck as bad as the legit classes that never get played? That's pretty insane, and pretty moronic if you ask me. Like I said..improve the classes that aren't worth shit before you go disproving the ones that people have fun playing.



Now you seem to get some of it, you can improve the underpowered or nerf the powerful or both. The purpose of making new classes however; is to give players more choices in the classes they can play not negate the value of existing classes or making new classes that suck. You just don't seem to see the problem though in making a new class that both out-combats and damages another class with the same exact spell sets; there just is no way to balance for that and keep those class archetypes the way you want them. EXP tables don't really mean much when you play at 3x or more exp with halved exp charts. So you just have to bite the bullet when you balance them.





All that means is, those classes need help. My suggestion? Make them 'Tenchu' like..they can have similar stats to a monk/oracle





I agree that those classes need help but that isn’t all that means. However, there also isn't much you can give them and keep their current class archetype. You can’t give them more picklocks or traps skills as that only affects PVG dynamics. If you give them dodge and crits they don’t really fit the description of their classes anymore.



I suggested putting in substitutes for Missionaries and Gypsies a few days ago. I wouldn’t appose this as it seems like it is needed if Oracles and Monks stay the same.



What version:



Demon-Slayer: other skills picklock,traps

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Silk, 1-handed, priest-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +15, Crits +7

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Leather, 1-handed, priest-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +7

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Silk, 1-handed, Priest-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +15, Crits +7

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Leather, 1-handed, Priest-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +7

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Silk, 1-handed, priest-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +20, Crits +5

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Leather, 1-handed, priest-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +5

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Silk, 1-handed, Priest-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +20, Crits +5

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Leather, 1-handed, Priest-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +5



Blade-Singer: other skills picklock,traps theivery

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Silk, 1-handed, bard-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +15, Crits +7

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Leather, 1-handed, bard-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +7

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Silk, 1-handed, bard-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +15, Crits +7

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Leather, 1-handed, bard-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +7

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Silk, 1-handed, bard-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +20, Crits +5

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Leather, 1-handed, bard-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +5

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Silk, 1-handed, bard-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +20, Crits +5

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Leather, 1-handed, bard-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +5



Hex-Blade: other skills picklock,traps theivery

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Silk, 1-handed, mage-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +15, Crits +7

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Leather, 1-handed, mage-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +7

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Silk, 1-handed, mage-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +15, Crits +7

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Leather, 1-handed, mage-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +7

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Silk, 1-handed, mage-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +20, Crits +5

Hp: 7-9 , C-3, Leather, 1-handed, mage-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +5

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Silk, 1-handed, mage-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +20, Crits +5

Hp: 9-11, C-3, Leather, 1-handed, mage-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +10, Crits +5



Also should they be the same dodge and crits as monks and oracles or should they be lower? I thought I remember you agreeing that monks/oracles should really be +15 dodge, Crits +7. So i put the default +20, +5 dodge and crit values too. As you can see there are also leather versions like Rogues and lowered the dodge accordingly.



Idealy you want to try to make them worth 100-125 exp tables to try to keep the realm as tightly balanced as possible. Also can anyone think of something small to give to rogues to put them at 100% exp tables?



Syntax if your reading these what do you think about replacing gypsies and missionaries and possibly bards as player classes?

TCA

i'll post updated revisions and replies to responses as soon as a get a chance. i've been mad busy at work the past week and a half and i only work on mud stuff at work anymore (on my free time of course :sealed:). thanks for the commentary so far.

I like those suggestions for missy/gypsy/bard upgrades honestly..but I think they should stay leather. As far as which leather option is best, I think it's really a toss-up. 9-11 hps would probably be best, seeing the outrageous upgrade that warriors and such were given. However, one variation I don't see would be as follows:



Hp: 9-11, C-3, Leather, 1-handed, magic-2, Bash, Cstealth, Dodge +15, Crits +5

(the simple difference being dodge +15 instead of 10 or 20).



I think that would probably be the best suit for the classes..as far as their BS goes, I'm not entirely familiar with the new items added in on morbid so far, so I couldn't make a fair assumption on what to do there...but, perhaps they could get a class-specific bs-only weapon? Some sort of 1h, extremely slow (5000 or so speed, possibly higher..high enough that normal combat is out of the question) that could drop a hefty, yet well-balanced BS.



Also..as far as their current bs not matching up to a round from a monk or oracle - that's expected. Pretty much no class can BS higher than most classes best round, and like I said..at higher levels, they'll be able to crit over 300 with 1h weapons, along with their +crits, light-none enc, and gear, they'll be doing 40-45% crits easy and probably, more than likely, wont BS unless they're pvping..but of course, that's all according to the person playing the class and how they build the character.

So a funny note, the one thing that never comes up when you two talk about balancing is items. You can make any class look fair on paper when you compare it to other classes, but when you start doing silly things like removing the dodge penalty on plate armor or not putting a high enough dodge and encumberance penalty on it at higher levels, yet again, there's no comparison as to which class to play.



Take into consideration the variant normally called "Trolloc" where a paladin is given druid-1 instead of priest-1. Instantly whenever this class is made, any player that wants to play a plate class has to be a trolloc.. why? Because of course there is no new 'paladin' or 'warrior' or 'cleric' only armor at the new higher level restrictions.. therefor you get the healing of mend (not quite as good as mahe, but comparable), the armor bonus from barkskin, and all the normal weapon and armor bonuses.



Just a point though, take it or leave it.



-Drago

dude, the main problem with the hps added in my opinion is that a backstab in pvp is now worth shit.. a witchy at level 70 with over 2k hps is going to laugh when u backstab him for 550.. sort of puts things out of whack.. maybe the class weapons for backstab is a good idea as long as its doesnt have UBER enc on it.. maybe make it a 5th questy or something as all the 5th questies are poo nehow for 1 handers..



oh and bring back thief.. alot of people enjoy playing a thief with combat 3 for the low exp chart and COUGH vault picking ability which should be added back to game *wink*



p.s ban sparhawk from ever playing mud again! lol

dude, the main problem with the hps added in my opinion is that a backstab in pvp is now worth shiti agree that backstabs aren't as useful as they were back in the day. i had thought about adding +10/+10 or something similar to all class-stealth classes, and maybe a race or two.

Backstabs are completely fine...with HPs this way, all that means is you can't round someone with a BS..and I think that's something EVERYONE will enjoy...with it set like this, pvp can still be interesting past level 30..you don't have to worry about some dick comming along and bsing your script and killing it all in one fell-swoop..(sp?)



But a little bs damage couldnt hurt at all..I just really don't think anyone needs to be rounded by a bs..



P.S. Ban sparhawk? Why..sparhawk is winterhawk..in other words, he's the man who recreated or more-so re-compiled all of the fixed paths (or a vast majority) so that people like us could still enjoy the game a little. He's a good mudder, he's quiet and doesn't bother people. I've played with him legit as well as hexed, and never had any problems from him nor complaints about him..(shrugs)

sparhawk from morbid = winterhawk? Sparhawk from morbid had just started playing mud like two months prior to when I met him on morbid last time. He's also quite the bipolar mudder.

Are you saying there's something wrong with bipolar mudders?



-Drago