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First of all, the Ba'ath party regime in Iraq needed to go. There hasn't been any bigger murderer of muslims than Saddam, a muslim himself. Muslims in the arab world need to realize that Americans are doing them a favor by ridding their countries of scum like Saddam and his two sons. In Iran the people have seen the coalition forces dismantle a totalitarian regime, next door, and now they are rioting in the streets, trying to rid their country of their own totalitarian mullahs (religious leaders). So in the end, if Iraq and Iran both find democracy and freedom the effort is worthwhile, even if we don't find WMDs.



It's time for anti-war nut jobs to stop spinning this issue to further push their ideological agenda and admit that the world is now a safer place with democracy being brought to places like Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

yeah, but the issue is how the bush admin sold it to us and the world..



you don't feel lied to -

a bad guy he was; who would of though that bastard was telling the turth when he said WMD program was over.

Sure the worlds "Safer" if you wanna buy the official Story from the Spin masters in DC. How many of the civillians we killed had familys. Im SURE they are OH SO HAPPY to see US in their country, installing a government that if it disobeys america will be replaced by another Pro-US government. I dont know where you get your news (probily Faux News) but Irans been in an open state of revolt for a while now. It has nothing to do with freedom there. One party wants to take over what another party has. No freedom there, just leadership change. Also incase you havent Noticed. THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ. its in an OPEN state of martial Law. The US plans to keep it in that state for as much as 6 more months, meaning basicaly WE run all aspects of their country (including that nice thing called OIL that republicans seem to gag at when you mention it and Iraq in the same sentence). Not democracy. Also Democracy means ALL people are allowed to run for office and vote. So far all Ba'Ath party anythings have been outlawed. So thats not democratic. Hell even america has a Nazi party that usualy tries to run for something. For all the harm Saddam and his sons did, the people still prefere them to the US forces... Thats a FACT. I wonder why they would say that if they are "All so greatful to have been liberated".



You put any nice rightwing warmonger spin you want on it. The fact is Bush Lied. When clinton did that we impeached him, when bush does it, all you do is call him a hero. How many more americans have to return in body bags before your "hero" is seen as the lying sack of shit he is?



"We know theres WMD in Iraq".... has now become "we know they had Programs" which will soon become "we never said eather thing, end of interview"



I swear to god, if Bush is re-elected, im buying a nice russian made, high powered sniper rifle and im climbing a clock tower or some shit... i wont live under the facism of his regiem. Homeland Security Act = Nazism, Racism and promotes a sence of nationwide paranoia.



Relorian

Originally posted by Voodoo_Chile

Muslims in the arab world need to realize that Americans are doing them a favor by ridding their countries of scum like Saddam and his two sons.



It would be nice if they realized that, but I doubt it'll happen. It's especially hard for them to think we're doing them a "favor" if we kill, starve, and brutilize so many of them... see what I mean?





admit that the world is now a safer place



I thoroughly disagree. During all the looting in Baghdad, biomedical labs and prototype nuclear power sites got looted. IF Iraq did have WMD, lord only knows who got hold of it now.



And furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, all those orphaned kids in Iraq are going to live their whole lives fanatically hating the US. Attacking Muslim nations does not *prevent* terror -- that's nonsensical. If anything, it creates and provokes more terror!



If I had to pick a world leader who I think is the biggest threat to international peace, I'd say Bush, no question. (A Time Europe poll seemed to agree, with over 50% of Europeans polled saying the same thing!)



with democracy being brought to places like Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.



Iraq has no democracy. It's under martial law.



Iran has no democracy currently and I doubt that it will any time soon.



Afghanistan doesn't have much democracy; the government has so little power that all it controls is the capital city. The rest of the country is still rival warlords. The country is in shambles, no infrastructure -- few paved roads remain, no working rail system, lack of power in many places -- and that stuff takes big bucks to build, which the government hasn't had since the Soviet satellite era.



So I'm not quite seeing your point...

The war in Iraq is subsequently bringing democracy to Iran. College students in Tehran have seen coalition troops on their border battling Saddam's Ba'ath party, and now they're empowered to rebel against the mullahs that have persecuted them for 20+ years. Everyone knows that next to N. Korea, Iran is the most dangerous enemy America has, and we all can benefit from change being embraced there, a change that started with Iraq, and like a domino effect, has swept into Iran.



And as for your martial law argument. Democratization takes time. Look at how long it took for us to rebuild Germany and Japan, post world war II. This isn't the land of oz, and you can't merely snap your fingers and expect change. Maybe if your attention spans weren't so short, you would see the wider scope of things. Change will come, but it will not come overnight. When it arrives, it will be for the greater good of the respective countries, their respective peoples, and for all of mankind.

It's swept to Iran because of our direct interference with those college students. We've planted agents over there to try and start an uprising and it's paying off. It's just one more reason to show Bush cares nothing about international law. 7 more months til our regime change!!!

Originally posted by Voodoo_Chile

Change will come, but it will not come overnight. When it arrives, it will be for the greater good of the respective countries, their respective peoples, and for all of mankind.





No change will not come over night. it will come right before american dictator Bush leaves office. it will come in the form of him declairing that America owns these "Terrtories" instead of mearly being an Occyping force.



As to your comment bout Germany and Japan..... wars a lil diffrent. This wasnt realy a WAR, this was more a mini police action. We had to be in Germany cause we bombed the holy living shit out of it for 4 years.... that tends to cause tons and tons of deaths. Which is why today, in germany, they still advise US Soldiers to NOT stray to far from American bases.... the murder rate for US Soldiers occupying Germany is STILL HIGH. And we Just basicaly rebuilt japan and left.... they took care of their own shit.





America will never learn that when you bully the world, you create Terrorism. The war on terror wont be over till this lession is learned. True Saddam was a Bad man, i wont argue it. But whats worse? A single man and his party who rules a country with an Iron Fist, or an Oil Company that will Rule with an Iron Fist and that can and will cut off food to its forigen workers in times of strike?



One last thing. For the last 10 years, American installed Sanctions have starved alot of Iraqi's to death.... They are NOT happy about the US being there. Had you done some more homework instead of Following the media blindly, you'd know that. This is what happens when people are luled into a sence of complacency. They believe everything the state run media has to say. I do believe the BBC published the wide angle shot of saddams statue toppeling. IT WAS NOT A MASS OF PEOPLE. More like 50 Iraqi's and about 25 soldiers that were standing around. But you tighten up a camera angle and BAM. It looks like all of Iraq is turning out for this shit.







This has Been another Mini-Rant brought to you by the Friendly Political Fiend,

Relorian

Originally posted by Relorian

A single man and his party who rules a country with an Iron Fist, or an Oil Company that will Rule with an Iron Fist and that can and will cut off food to its forigen workers in times of strike?



you should really refrain from using the 'Oil Thieves' argument in your discussions. that extends to exactly what you're claiming i'm doing -- "Following the media blindly." we have no proof that the US is profiting from Iraq's oil wells or that they have any intention on doing so. sure, it will probably be a huge factor in paying for the rebuilding and the cost of war, but simply saying we did what we did for oil is just speculation. when i see that in your argument it ruins a lot of your credibility (IMO).



-syn

They gave the contract to Halbutrin, owned by Vice President Cheney. The bush administration has called for all Oil sanctions placed on Iraq by the UN to be lifted. Recently i read in the local newspaper that officials are displeased at the time its taking to export the Iraqi oil to america. This war was Mainly about Oil. We can dress it up any which way we want. Call it anything we want, but we are punping iraqi oil, and we are shipping it to america. Plain and simple. If that doesnt prove americas True intentions i dont know what will. Incase your wondering, i read more newspapers than i watch TV news. TV news doesnt run alot of the shit i care about, nor do they cover it in depth....



Relorian

Dick Cheney stepped down as assistant CEO three years ago from Haliburton, and the war was NOT about oil. It was about democratizing a troubled region in the world. Relorian, i've noticed that you're well suited to state opinion, but tend to shy away from the truth. And the truth is that without the war in Iraq, you would NOT be seeing college kids in Iran rioting in the streets, trying to bring change to their own troubled country. A stablized mideast is beneficial to everyone in the world, including America. As for Americans giving contracts to American companies and sub contractors to help in the effort to rebuild Iraq, I don't see what your problem is. Why not stimulate the American economy while bringing democracy to Iraq? Would you rather see the American government contract the jobs out to France??